Really good NPR radio show about gaming addiction

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11850948

Compulsive Video Gaming: Addiction or Vice?

July 10, 2007 from Talk of the Nation

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I’m Neal Conan in Washington.
Addiction is a word that many of us use casually in conversation. Any of us might describe someone as addicted to shopping or as an NPR addict. But the word is a term of art in medicine and one that has important implications. For example, compulsive gambling can be an addiction and it’s listed in the DSM, the manual that categorizes psychiatric diagnosis for mental illnesses.
Last week, the American Medical Association asked for more research on video game addiction. It’s not included in the DSM, at least not for now. Alcohol, tobacco and drugs are widely accepted. But when does a behavior take on the characteristics of an addiction? Do video or online games qualify? We want to hear from you if you used or if you have or used to have a problem with video games.
Give us a call, 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail, talk@npr.org. You can also comment on our blog. That’s at npr.org/blogofthenation.
Later on in the program, former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent and long-time umpire Bruce Froemming join us to talk about the men in blue at tonight’s all- star game in San Francisco.
But first, behaviors and addiction. We begin with Hilarie Cash, a consultant on Internet and computer addiction. And she joins us by phone from her office at Redmond, Washington. Nice to have you on the program today.
Dr. HILARIE CASH (Co-founder, Internet/Computer Addiction Services): Nice to be here. Thank you.
CONAN: And you clearly believe that video gaming can be an addiction?
Dr. CASH: I do.
CONAN: Why?
Dr. CASH: Because I see it in my clients.
CONAN: And how does it manifest itself?
Dr. CASH: These, I’m working with – the majority of them are young men. And they come in, they have lost jobs, lost marriages, dropped out of college or high school, and their lives have fallen apart. They exhibit all of the standard characteristics. Their behavior is compulsive, they get a high off of it, they do it in spite of negative consequences, and they really go into withdrawal when they try to cut back or stop playing.
CONAN: And what kind of video games are we talking about here?
Dr. CASH: Well, the most popular one is “World of Warcraft.”
CONAN: That’s one of those online multirole-player games.
Dr. CASH: That’s exactly right.
CONAN: And are these cases limited to that kind of video game, do you think?
Dr. CASH: The majority of the cases that we get do have to do with those multiplayer online games. I think the social element - the games are very cleverly designed, very compelling and interesting. And the social element also really gets people hooked. So the majority are those types of games.
CONAN: And we’re going to get into this with more depth later. But when you read that the American Medical Association says, look, there’s just not enough research for now. We’re going to call this definitely a problem for some people, but right now we can’t call it an addiction.
Dr. CASH: I agree with them. It’s just we need more research.
CONAN: Yet, that does not prevent you from calling it an addiction?
Dr. CASH: No, not at all. Because I think research always is scrambling to catch up. So – and especially when it comes to these high-tech problems. Research is a, you know, it’s a slow engine that (audio gap) at a rather languorous pace.
CONAN: Mm-hmm. And it could prove, once the research is in, that you might be wrong.
Dr. CASH: I will be surprised. I think it will prove that I’m right.
CONAN: Okay. Why is it important that if it is an addiction, it’d be listed as such in the DSM?
Dr. CASH: Well, I think the main benefit is actually going to become the development of in-patient treatment programs, which we don’t have right now, that can be paid for by insurance and dealt with the same way we deal with drug and alcohol problems.
CONAN: So the insurance aspect is critical?
Dr. CASH: It is critical. And also, obviously, just for public awareness and public acceptance of it is an enormous problem. Right now, the public thinks of this as a problem sometimes, but they don’t really view it as an addiction. If it can be classified officially as an addiction, that will certainly wake people up.
CONAN: Because if you call – right now, somebody could say, look, you’ve got a problem. Shape up, young man, and get your life in order, as opposed to calling it an addiction where clearly, you need help.
Dr. CASH: Exactly.
CONAN: And is that a problem for a lot of people coming to you that they’re – is there shame involved in this?
Dr. CASH: There’s always shame anytime you’re dealing with an addiction, because the behaviors that people engage in, over time, as they become more and more addicted always involves deceit. And the fact that they’re failing out at school, they engage in behaviors that they themselves feel ashamed of.
CONAN: And the characteristic you were talking about is, I guess, inability to control it would be an important one.
Dr. CASH: Right. That’s the compulsivity aspect.
CONAN: Uh-huh. There is also – is it like, do you think, gambling addiction?
Ms. CASH: It’s very much like gambling addiction. And we do accept that that’s an addiction.
CONAN: Mm-hmm. So that same – the high that gamblers associate with what they do, that’s a similar aspect in gaming addiction, do you think?
Dr. CASH: Absolutely. And the development of tolerance. So people will play, you know, an hour of “World of Warcraft,” let’s say, but then, after that, it’s no longer making them high. They want more. And so they play more. And they develop tolerance over time.
CONAN: Mm-hmm. So one hour is not enough so it’s got to be three hours the next day of week or whatever. How rapidly can this escalate?
Dr. CASH: Very quickly. Just over a matter of weeks and months, people can end up with a severe addiction.
CONAN: Now, let’s see if we can get some listeners in on this conversation. Our number is 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail is talk@npr.org. And let’s start with Ray(ph). Ray is calling us from South Florida.
RAY (Caller): Hi. How are you?
CONAN: I’m well. Thanks.
RAY: Yeah. I just wanted to comment about the addiction of the video gaming. I, at one point in time, was addicted myself to the video games. I would play anywhere from eight to even 16 hours a day depending on the day. You know, I lost a job. You know, it was a while back, but to get out of the actual addiction itself was very difficult. You know, it was a very tedious thing. But it certainly is an addiction. It should be considered one. You know, it’s very wildly overlooked.
CONAN: What was your addictive game and how did you get out of it?
RAY: Well, it was a role-playing game, obviously, you know, between “Zelda” and you know, way back in the day. But how did I get out of it? After I lost a job, you know, I realized, well, you know, maybe this is a little too much. I would sit and play “Metal Gear Solid” for, I don’t know, 10 hours sometimes. And once I was done with that game, you beat the game, and you move on to the next one.
CONAN: So there was – after a while, there was – nothing was enough?
RAY: Yeah. I mean, it’s never enough, you know. It’s – the games are designed to captivate, you know, every – all of your senses essentially. And it does that very effectively, you know. These - people who develop the games, obviously, extremely intelligent people who, you know, are probably addicted to the games themselves, you know. Not that it’s anything bad, you know. It’s what they do. It’s their job. But, you know, you need to look at it in retrospect and how it affects other people.
CONAN: Yet, I’m sure you know, Ray, that most people who do this don’t develop an addiction.
RAY: I would imagine not. But you know, people find the compassion – or, I’m sorry, the passion for the game. And you know, they say, well, you know, I’d like to make something like that. At one point in time, I, you know, I wanted to be a game developer. It’s just about the work(ph) that I chose.
CONAN: Well, thanks very much. And good luck with it, Ray.
RAY: Likewise. And my condolences to all those who are addicted out there.
CONAN: Well, Hilarie Cash, does Ray’s story sound familiar?
Dr. CASH: It’s completely familiar. Yes, indeed. And I wanted to make a comment. You had said, you know, the vast majority of people who play these games don’t become addicted. Actually, I really think that we’re going to see much higher levels of addiction for video games particularly the massive multiplayer games. I’ve heard estimates up to 40 and even 50 percent of those players getting addicted.
CONAN: Well, Hilarie Cash, thanks very much.
Ms. CASH: You’re welcome.
CONAN: Hilarie Cash, a counselor for Internet and computer addiction. She joined us today by phone from her office in Redmond, Washington.
Michael Lemonick is a senior writer at Time magazine. He wrote the article of “The Science of Addiction” in this week’s issue. He joins us now from the studios at Princeton University.
And it’s nice to have you on the program today.
Mr. MICHAEL LEMONICK (Author, “How We Get Addicted”; Senior Writer, Time Magazine): Thanks very much.
CONAN: And I assume of the things you looked into was video games and the online games like “World of Warcraft.” I know you were listening to what Hilarie Cash had to say. Does that make sense to you that as many as 40 or 50 percent of the people who play this might develop an addiction?
Mr. LEMONICK: You know, I think it’s an anecdotal figure, which means that it seems to her that this is what she’s hearing or maybe she just – this is what she’s heard. There’s no actual evidence to that effect. So I won’t believe it until there’s some study that’s actually done.
CONAN: And I guess the American Medical Association feels the same way.
Mr. LEMONICK: It feels the same way about the tendency to get addicted. But also, it feels the same way about being hesitant to classify this as an addiction at all until there’s further study. But I do agree with her that’s in part because they just want to be very cautious.
CONAN: And there’s - in part because the research hasn’t been done, there’s no evidence to back it up as yet. So how do we define addiction? How does it relate to behavior, a behavior like online gaming?
Mr. LEMONICK: Well, you know, that’s a really good question. And in fact, as part of our story, we went to a number of different experts to ask for their definitions of addiction, and they were all a little bit different. And it demonstrates to me that defining addiction is a little bit like defining weather Pluto is a planet or not. In a sense, all of these behaviors certainly have a lot of similarities.
But I remember back in the ‘70s, people talking about pot, marijuana, and said, well, it’s not addictive because – it’s only psychologically addicting because you don’t undergo withdrawal when you stop, which is true and also meaningless, because the people who are addicted to pot - and the AMA does recognize that as an addiction - are absolutely addicted. It’s really a set of behaviors. And as your previous guest described, they have to deal with the inability to stop even though these things are affecting your life in a negative way.
CONAN: It’s the compulsive part of it, the inability to control it, is that the key element?
Mr. LEMONICK: That’s the key element in my opinion. Again, the importance of whether you define something as an addiction or not has a lot to do with whether insurance will cover it. That’s why it’s so important.
CONAN: That’s why. Because otherwise, you’re treating - a lot of people won’t be able to get treated unless their insurance covered it.
Mr. LEMONICK: That's right. That's right. And I think that’s why there’s so much focus on this question of whether it is or whether it isn’t. But the behaviors are destructive and they are compulsive, and the people who indulge in them know better and still can’t stop. So that is all in common to all of these behaviors.
CONAN: Michael Lemonick, stay with us if you will.
Mr. LEMONICK: I will.
We’re going to talk more about what really is an addiction and the difference between a bad habit and a mental disorder. We’ll talk with the doctor who helps decide that question in a few minutes.
And we’ll take more of your calls. Join us, 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail is talk@npr.org. There’s also a conversation going on our blog, that’s at npr.org/blogofthenation.
I'm Neal Conan. It’s the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
(Soundbite of music)
CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.
We’re talking about addiction and when a behavior should be considered a true medical condition. Some people say everything from video games to food can be addictive, but so far, the group that decides what is considered an addiction says, no, at least not yet. We’ll talk with the doctor from the American Psychiatric Association a little bit later.
Right now, our guest is Michael Lemonick. He’s a senior writer at Time magazine. We have a link you his article titled, “The Science of Addiction” at npr.org/talk.
And let us know when does a behavior take on the characteristics of addiction. Do you think video or online games qualify? 800-989-8255. E-mail, talk@npr.org. And you can read what other listeners have to say at our blog, npr.org/blogofthenation.
And let’s get Jonathan(ph) on the line. Jonathan’s calling us from San Francisco.
JONATHAN (Caller): Hello.
CONAN: Hi, Jonathan.
JONATHAN: Thanks for taking my call.
CONAN: Sure.
JONATHAN: I just wanted to add my two cents regarding the addiction aspect of video games. I once was - had an addiction to prescription painkillers, and definitely that changed my life. I did find at that time that I played more video games as an escape. And I just wanted to say that I really don’t view video games as an addiction since it physiologically doesn’t change what I'm doing it. It’s just that I look at it as more of a way to spend my time. And specifically regarding the “World of Warcraft,” which was brought up previously, I avoid that game specifically, because it’s a worldwide game so there’s always going to be people playing online. So if you look at it from an addiction point, you could get lost in time and spend two or three days playing games.
CONAN: So that one worries you. But on the other hand, you say you’ve been - I hate to use this word - but a real addict and you say this isn’t real addiction?
JONATHAN: You know, it really lies with the individual user and moderation, I would say. I'm to the point where I had I have an egg timer with me when I play video games online. And after 60 minutes, I check in with myself and see if I really need to continue playing. But it’s not something I lose control of. It’s just something that – it’s very easy to lose track of the time when you’re playing a game online.
CONAN: Michael Lemonick, you have some experience with addiction yourself.
Mr. LEMONICK: I do.
CONAN: And for your article in Time magazine, you described your experience in – by the way, Jonathan, thanks very much for the call. We appreciate it. You described your experience going under an FMRI, that’s a machine that can scan your brain and tell us what’s going on. What happened?
Mr. LEMONICK: Well, the addiction you refer to, which I talk about in the article, is and addiction to alcohol that I had when I was in my 20s. And it was pretty significant. And there was no question that I was addicted. And I also was a heavy user of pot. And I was addicted to that even though it was only psychologically addicting. And so the question – I stopped doing both of those things in 1981, and haven’t indulged in either one at all since. And so the question I was trying to look at was how my brain, if my brain, and how it has recovered. You see, one of the things that we’re discovering with these scanning machines is that one of the key problems with treating addiction is that addicts, even when they’re off the stuff, experience very powerful compulsions, almost irresistible compulsions to resume, and that these are triggered by places or sights or sounds that are associated with the addiction.
So if you’re a cocaine addict, for example, you might be off cocaine for three, four weeks, and walk by the corner where your dealer used to hang out, and just seeing that street corner will trigger an almost irresistible compulsion. So – and they’ve looked at the brains of addicts and exposed them to some of these triggers to see how long it takes for this compulsions die off.
So I went into this machine, and they piped the smell of beer, literally, into my nostrils. They’ve got a – a smell-o-meter, they call it. And they would actually pipe the scent of beer to my nostrils and see how by brain reacted. And they were not actually surprised, but I was actually relieved to see that my brain didn’t react at all. My brain has lost that compulsive trigger that is set off by the smell of alcohol or by the sight of it. Now, that’s not so surprising with me, but the real question is, how soon after people get off of alcohol or cocaine, for example, do those responses begin to die out. And they’re finding that it takes months, but the responses do begin to die off.
CONAN: And I guess another question is when do behaviors exhibit the same kind of changes in your brain and then the same kind of changes when you stop.
Here to explain where the American Psychiatric Association stands on video gaming and how the APA decides what is and what is not a psychiatric addiction is Dr. Charles O'Brien. He’s chairman of the APA’s DSM-V Committee on Substance Abuse Disorders. He joins us by phone from his home in Philadelphia.
Nice to have you on the program today.
Dr. CHARLES O'BRIEN (Chairman, Committee on Substance Abuse Disorders, American Psychiatric Association): Thank you.
CONAN: And is it right to say that, right now, not enough research on video gaming to define it as an addiction?
Dr. O'BRIEN: That’s absolutely correct. There are studies going on now. And certainly there are people who believe that it’s an addiction. But that word is tossed around very loosely. And we would rather go by the evidence. So we stick very much to what the study show, what the data show. And we will certainly consider everything that’s been published in the peer-reviewed literature about video games over the next five years, and maybe even suggest some additional studies that might be done so that we can decide whether or not to develop a category for this condition.
CONAN: Why five years?
Dr. O'BRIEN: Well, the classification really began in the 1950’s or early ‘60s. And when I was a resident, it was DSM-I. I was part of the committee for DSM- III-Revised, which actually pioneered the current system of substance use disorders with – so in every several years, it’s revised depending on what the data show. We expect the new classification to include much more neurobiology, including a lot of genetics. Because we’ve learned, especially in the addiction area that genetics plays a very strong role in who among us will develop this addictions. Probably the same for the video game compulsion, certainly it’s true for alcohol, cocaine, nicotine, heroin, and, you know, all of the addictions that have been studied.
CONAN: Here’s an e-mailed question we have from Ron(ph) in Corvallis, Oregon. How do you describe the difference between an addiction, a disease, and a habit? I’ve heard one opinion that many so-called diseases such as alcoholism, drugs or maybe even gaming could actually be called habits.
Dr. O'BRIEN: Well, you know, this is a matter of definition, you know. Normally, we would think of a habit as something that could even be beneficial. And it’s the same part of the brain, though, that is involved in reinforcing certain behaviors. So some of them are very good, whether it’s a tennis stroke or a dance maneuver or playing music and so forth. You know, you could call these habits, too, if you want, but in fact, we get into the area of disease when the behavior is such that it causes medical problems, you know, such as depression and ill health and the lost of job and family and so forth, then it’s clearly in the realm of something that doctors have to be concerned about.
CONAN: Mm-hmm. Another question. This - an e-mail from Karen(ph) in Olathe, Kansas. I'm sure I'm pronouncing that wrong. Is video game addiction more common in adults? She uses the term addiction you would not. Is video game addiction more common in adults who as children spent an unusually large amount of time playing video games or watching television?
Dr. O'BRIEN: Well, you know, if I answer that, it would just be based on anecdotal evidence. Certainly, you’d have to be below a certain age to have had this kind of experience. Because, you know, when I was child, there was no option to play video games. And even my own children, you know, had rather rudimentary games at that point. But my grandchildren are really into it. And it’s conceivable that, you know, they could develop compulsion that would interfere with their normal activities. But I'm not ready to call it an addiction at this stage.
CONAN: Let’s see if we can get another caller on the line. Bill(ph) is with us. Bill calling from Oakland, California.
BILL (Caller): Hi there. Can you hear me?
CONAN: Yes. You’re on the air, Bill. Go ahead please.
BILL: Hi. Yeah. I work in a games business. I'm a producer in a games business. And I just wanted to say that, I mean, games by design are intended to be addictive. I mean, there’s never a design meeting or a game green lit unless the game play itself has an addictive element to it. One of the MTV network’s business units is called addictive games. So there you go. So I just wanted to maybe other - another person from the industry has already mentioned this, but I just wanted to throw that in there. And I’ll take your…
CONAN: Well, I was just going to ask, Bill, what kinds of things are considered - and again, considering we’ve got the doctor on the line who helps define these things - small, a common-term addictive, not medical-term addictive. But what kinds of things, in common parlance, make a game addictive?
BILL: I guess it’s just sort of a compulsion to not, you know, walk away from the game. So, you know, you want someone that, you know – basically, there are several ways people buy this games. But one way would be, for a child, let’s say, or an adult to play a game at a neighbor’s house, and they just have to get back in there and, you know, kill some more people or do whatever. And then they go to store and buy it, and get effects, right?
CONAN: So you measure it by its effect on people who test it out or use it?
BILL: Exactly.
CONAN: All right. Bill, thanks very much.
BILL: Thank you. Bye-bye.
CONAN: I wonder, Michael Lemonick, it’s different – it seems to me, there’s a different quality when you have people like Bill, who just called, who are designing things to be addictive as opposed to, you know, cocaine or heroin or alcohol or tobacco.
Mr. LEMONICK: Different in what sense?
CONAN: In the sense that, you know, these are things that occur in the world and we find them that they affect our brains in a certain way as opposed to something that is designed by a human being to be addictive.
Mr. LEMONICK: Well, I mean – but you have to remember that the tobacco companies, it’s been learned, deliberately manipulated the nicotine content of cigarettes to make them more addictive. So it’s not quite as fine a distinction as you might think. And I’m not sure that it makes a difference in whether you should consider these things addictions or not. I mean, whether you should consider banning - I mean, alcohol, say, beer or wine, that’s manufactured. Yes, alcohol is a natural substance, but it’s manufactured by companies and sold in stores. And so, I think it’s a continuum you’re talking about, not a difference – an entire difference in category.
Dr. O'BRIEN: Maybe I could add some clarity here.
CONAN: Go ahead, please, Dr. O'Brien.
Dr. O'BRIEN: We have parts of our brain that are designed for certain functions. Everybody knows we have a motor system, sensory system, endocrine system, and so fort. We also have a reward system, and these are the same structures, the same neurons that are activated in normal rewards as they are with drug addiction, for example. And we know this because we’ve been able to study it for many years now. It actually goes back even further than the article in Time magazine. We’ve been doing this since 1970s in various ways. And we know, for example, that the same things that are good, whether it’d be listening to music, or viewing something that’s sexually arousing, or probably playing tennis or skiing, things that we really enjoy doing activate the same reward system.
The difference with drugs is that drugs short circuit the system. You don’t have to go through all of the preparatory behaviors and work that you do to get this activation. The drugs - you know, just a little bit of cocaine can give you - or give the animal, as we’ve been doing – and we do a lot of these studies, but even in human beings, more intense stimulation of the reward system than actual sexual intercourse. So this creates - talk about a habit, this is a terrible habit. It becomes a compulsion. And some people are more prone to develop these kinds of hijacked reward systems than others. But it’s the same part of the brain. So I’m certain that the video games that people enjoy are activating the reward system. The question is, do they do it in as intense a way so as to provoke these compulsions that we see with drugs?
Mr. LEMONICK: Right, and that - I’m sorry. That’s exactly the point. They – these behaviors - drugs do hijack this natural system that we’ve evolved, this natural reward system. And so clearly do video games. And so, we’re really talking, as I understand it, about a matter of degree. They do the same thing. The only question is, do video games do it enough to qualify as an addiction?
CONAN: That’s Michael Lemonick, a senior writer at Time and author of the article The Science of Addiction in this week’s issue. Also with us, Dr. Charles O’Brien, chairman of the DSM-V Committee on Substance Abuse Disorders.
You’re listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
And let’s get Andrei(ph) on the line. Andrei is calling us from Columbus, Georgia.
ANDREI (Caller): Yeah. How you doing?
CONAN: Very well. Thanks.
ANDREI: I used to be a heroin addict. I used to consume(ph) about $200 a day. And I’ve been clean for about eight years now. But about three years ago, I started playing those games online. I started buying them, and they are just as addictive. And they always - you always feel the need that you need more and more and more. I used to play 12, 10 hours a day, easy.
CONAN: And…
ANDREI: And I’d be…
CONAN: So as somebody with experience with addiction, you say there’s no difference? Is it…
ANDREI: This is addictive compulsive disorder, you know. You won’t get addicted to something that’s not addictive, very addictive. I don’t care what anybody says. My wife used to be like, you’ve been on there for four hours, you’ve got to stop playing now. And I’d be like, okay, in a minute. And that minute turned to a couple more hours.
CONAN: Hmm. And so…
ANDREI: I don’t know.
CONAN: And so, you continued it, even though, it was, you know, clearly, counterproductive - what you were doing.
ANDREI: I had back surgery. And I wasn’t even supposed to be sitting out on a computer that long. So, you know, I was, basically, you know, doing more damage to myself playing those games. But I didn’t even think about it like that.
CONAN: And, Andrei, did you manage to stop it?
ANDREI: Oh, yeah, most definitely. That was another addiction I had to overcome. And I had to wean myself off just like heroin, you know.
CONAN: Hmm. Well, congratulations, Andrei. Thanks very much for the call.
ANDREI: All right. Thank you.
CONAN: And Dr. O’Brien, when you hear, again, anecdotal testimony like that, it does suggest that this - you know, are individuals - do some individuals have a susceptibility to a lot of different kinds of addictions?
Dr. O'BRIEN: Well, we think so. It’s actually fairly uncommon to find someone who is only addicted to a single drug. Nowadays, most addicts are also addicted to nicotine. And we heard about marijuana a few minutes ago. So multiple addictions are common. And it’s also possible that these people with a susceptibility to addictions are also susceptible to some of the behavioral addictions that could eventually involve video games.
So I think that Andrei’s testimony that we just heard is important, and this is a sort of thing that we do pay attention to and we try to set up studies whereby you can more objectively look at that, you know, interview a large number of people who are using video games and, you know, try to see how common it is.
For example, even with cocaine, which most of us think of is being a highly addictive drug, the statistics show that only 16 percent of people who try cocaine end up becoming addicted to it. So that means that - you know, there’s a big difference among people, and it’s clear that genes play a big role in who is likely to develop an addiction.
CONAN: And would there be a certain threshold above which - I mean, if only two percent of people who get involved with video games become addicted, is that enough?
Dr. O'BRIEN: Well – I mean, I think that, arguably, it would be if there is a, you know, there are certain uncommon diseases. And some drugs are, you know, have a much lower potential for addiction. But if you become addicted to them, it’s still an addiction. It still requires treatment.
CONAN: Well, Dr. O’Brien, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.
Dr. O'BRIEN: You’re welcome.
CONAN: Charles O’Brien, chairman of the DSM-V Committee on Substance Abuse Disorders. He joined us today by phone from his home in Philadelphia. And Michael Lemonick, we thank you for your time today, too.
Mr. LEMONICK: Thank you.
CONAN: Michael Lemonick, a senior writer at Time magazine, author of “The Science of Addiction” in this week’s issue. He was with us from a studio at Princeton University.
We’ll have more on baseball and umpires at tonight’s all-star game when we come back.
It’s TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.