To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

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Morfedel
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To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Why?

Why are you here defending your hobby? I'm quite curious. *I* was a gaming addict. I bet that I had as much game time as any of you in EQ, and other games.

And I realized I DID have a problem; and for each person that admits it, there are a ton of people who won't.

Now, I can understand if you are trying to argue that the game ITSELF is addictive. Certainly, it isnt the same thing as smoking tobacco, drinking, or taking cocaine. (Although studies have shown that a rise of the naturally occuring chemical, Dropamine (I think its called) rises with addiction, and this has been seen to occur in people involved in purely mental addictice activities, including video gaming, as studies have shown).

Playing a computer game in and of itself is harmless. That I won't argue. But, some activities DO lend itself to being more addictive than others.

In the end, it certainly is true that its the responsibility of the behavior lies first and foremost at the door of the gamer in question. But one must ask: we don't see these stories about games like Diablo 2, or Baldur's Gate (or nowhere near as extensively, at least).

The very nature of online games such as Everquest lends themselves to being addictive to a far greater extent than otherwise. They aren't just a fun game, but incredibly interactive with other people as well, and allowing you to feel immersed in an entire world, whereas with a solo game its nowhere near as possible.

I have no problem with people playing Everquest, who are still taking care of the rest of their lives. The problem is, there is a surprisingly high number of people who are doing the reverse.

Anyway; so to return to my original question: why are you here to defend the hobby? Frankly, who cares? Why do you care? We aren't heading to the game boards telling you how evil you are, or deluded, or whathaveyou. We are here to support each other in fixing our addictions.

And this isn't a public forum for debate. We NEVER CLAIMED it was. This is a forum for support, and talking about our addictions, and our climbing out of it. So, I really don't understand why the rest of you even care to come here and argue - if you disagree, why not just blow us off and go play your games?

I just don't understand the level of defensiveness that has people coming here to defend a hobby, when we are generally keeping to ourselves, with some rare exceptions.

Mrisda
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Quote:
General Discussion
This is a general forum for posting anything related to online game addiction.

I believe we are simply discussing something related to online gaming addiction, namely, is it actually an addiction.

We also come here because we see some people or some groups and movements blaming games for all of their problems. Is it wrong of us to supply people with a contrary viewpoint? Would you rather remain only partially informed as you stomp around, waiting for your turn on the soapbox?

If so, let us know and we'll leave you to your finger-pointing (simply my opinion).

Iadas
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

human nature.

We are defending our hobby, as you would defend something that you felt strongly about. Would you not want to defend something that you felt strongly about?

eqSurvivor
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well

No one would deny that alcohol can be addictive, but millions of people drink responsibly and do not abuse it.

Many people play EQ and do not abuse it, but alot of people do.

Morfedel
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Re: well

I guess that is where I differ.

I love to argue, when its for fun. But frankly, if someone dislikes my opinions... I don't care. I just go on living my life.

So, I don't go around defending my opinions, because frankly, I don't need to. What someone else believes does not influence my life.

(There are exceptions: NAMBLA, for instance, is a horrid institution. but as a general rule, I just live my life as *I* want to live it, and ignore people who want to scream at me.)

Now, I DO love to argue and debate. For example, I am happy to debate pro life vs pro choice - and I'll even take a side I don't believe in, play Devil's Advocate, just for a good argument.

But: If someone wants to scream at me for being wrong? If it isnt for fun, but serious? I'll just walk the other way, because their opinion has ZERO effect on me.

And thats the point. If I was in your position, and heard of this place? I'd have chuckled and then ignored it - because the opinions contrary to mine don't effect my life.

However, and I want to point this out: this is a private forum, really, not a public one. Thats why a forum could be allowed, for instance, to be passworded. You arent guaranteed freedom of speech in every single circumstance - the saying of your rights ending where mine begin, for instance.

Private forums have the right to practice zero freedom of speech. But the other point is, and you are missing this: this forum isn't here to scream at the lot of you. If we were to do this, we would go to the EQ forums (and if we went too far, guess what, OUR posts would get deleted).

We arent doing that. We are expressing our opinions; we are supporting each other to fight off addiction. And if these news services want to talk to us about our addiction? well, that is their right - go talk to them yhourself and tell them your side, and it will all be fair.

As for me? I'd LOVE to debate, as long as its polite, friendly, and non-hostile. But that isn't what this board is about....

(and if you disagree and think free speech is supposed to be protected at any forum board, then prove me wrong: start going to ANY forum that has laws and regulations, start breaking them, and then protest when they delete your posts. You will get the same kind of response, every single time.)

Mrisda
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Re: well

These boards should be password protected then.

Seriously, if you guys want this to be a private forum where you can discuss your side of the argument only (not trying to flame you or anything, just stating what I hear), then make it password protected.

I'd enjoy a good debate about this subject, but if you guys are unwilling to, then I'll go elsewhere.

Morfedel
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Re: well

As an individual, I'm happy to debate with anyone over anything as long as it isnt hostile.

As a supporter of this board, however, its another matter.

Why?

Because people are here trying to get help; not have an argument over whats right or wrong. IT feels much like bursting into an AA meeting and shout out, "Hey, drinking isnt so bad!" the alcoholics dont CARE, they just want to get treated.

And thats what this board is all about.

The other thing: the reason this board isnt password protected is to make people who are seeking help feel comfortable, read the posts, and decide if this place is for them. A password-protected site could make people less comfortable about joining without investigating it first - particularly if they themselves are struggling with addiction and are unsure if this place is for them.

And sometimes, they just need to read for awhile before they are ready to say, "Ok, I'm ready to intro myself now."

Squirrel
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Well,

I don't currently play an online game. I'm not terribly fond of the current selection.

However, i will not tolerate the public defamation of the genre, especially with the new specials on and Greece's semirecent controversial banning of gaming. This is a disturbing trend.

The day gaming addiction becomes a valid condition i fully expect to see bread addiction, carpet addiction, addiction addiction, word addiction and others added as well.

Iadas
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Re: Well,

That I can understand and respect why you want this board. But I've gone to AA meetings out of curiosity as well. I've asked question, and made comments. ItaEU(tm)s how we learn as a human.
I can not speak for most of the tards that come here (not meaning those that are seeking help), like that guy from fenie ro, but if I have something to say, then I would like to say it. I know my limits, and I have gone through many times before I hit the post button to make sure I'm not trying to come off on a flaming manner. But would you deny me of trying to see things from your side, and shun me when I ask questions?

*edited cause I suck at spelling :/ *

IadasProfileA A Mavrrik'sProfile

Edited by: Iadas at: 10/18/02 5:19:38 pm

Morfedel
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Re: Well,

Squirrel: what about the rising Dropamine levels they have identified in the brains of "Game addicts"? Dropamine, or however its spelled, rises in people addicted to other, CONFIRMED addictions.

The same rise has been detected in addicts of purely mental pursuits. Why would that be, if it werent in SOME way addictive?

Iadas: I'm not sure what you are referring to. I have no problems as a general rule with discussing things. Although, in one regard, do keep in mind this is in effect a support group, and most of the "Detractors" here are coming in and attacking our viewpoint, not discussing it with us.

If you have any legitimate questions you have, for instance, go ahead and ask: but recall, we didnt open this forum to debate. We opened it seeking help. *I* am an addict. I played EQ from final beta, and have been playing online games of one form or another ever since (although, like squirrel, the current selections leave something to be desired, I LOVED Neverwinter Nights).

So, what we are saying is: if you came here to argue with us and tell us we are wrong, please don't bother, because we dont CARE about that. We care about helping each other. We will be happy to DEBATE these topics - on other forums (well, I"d debate anywhere, but most of the people here dont like that, and I understand)

If you came here seeking understanding, however, that we can discuss just fine.

Hayzen
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Humans experience increased dopamine levels during orgasm as well. That does not mean that sex is addictive.

Mrisda
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

I don't know about THAT, Hayzen....

But, I'll respect your desire for help and leave. If there isn't a forum for debate here, I'll lose interest, like I just did.

Later everyone

Morfedel
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Maybe you could ask the moderators to add to the board an area to debate the subject? I dont know if they would go for it, but if so, that might provide for an area to debate it.

Otherwise, name a "place" that is open to such discussion, and yet that wont resort to name calling and insults, and I'll do what I can to debate with you.

Mrisda
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

drop me an email at my "spam email" (the one I use when I sign up for things online. I rarely check it, but this will give me a reason to check it out more often.

I'll also suggest a "debate" forum of sorts. I'd even be willing to moderate it, depending on what time would be required. I'm kinda busy between school and work.

Anyways, here's the e-mail. Maybe I could set up a list-serve via emails. We'll see: artemis_jax@yahoo.com

drop me a line

Morfedel
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Just as long as we dont allow flame wars, and other idiotic insults.

Rushboyz
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

I know this post will stay up because it agrees with the administrators. Lets be honest they really don't want the truth only opinions that match theirs everything else is removed. So much for general discussion and a free flowing of ideas and opinions

Mrisda
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

I'm doing what my feeble computer-illiterate mind will allow to set up a list serve now.

Wish me luck!

Morfedel
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

All right - and I emailed you, let me know.

Rushboyz: who ever said we wanted to discuss ideas here? Honestly? Alcoholics Anonymous doesnt invite people to come in and defend alcohol, do they? So why would you THINK that people here are interested in hearing a defense of Gaming?

This isnt about gaming. This is about addiction, and people trying to get cured. You think gaming is fine? GREAT! More power to you! We arent trying to stop you! We are trying to seek help - for people like me, who had trouble controlling it.

Besides: you talk about the truth. We dont know for a FACT what the scientific truth is; we dont, and neither do you, because nothing has been proven one way or another. We DO know that we have seen people's lives destroyed from this pattern of behavior.

Again, I'm not blaming verant. *I* only blame myself. *I* only take responsiblity for myself. But the addiction did occur; and it was over something that a lot of people are getting addicted t6o as well; that would indicate that there is an especially appealing quality in EQ that lends itself towards addiction.

Hayzen
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Quote: we dont, and neither do you, because nothing has been proven one way or another. We DO know that we have seen people's lives destroyed from this pattern of behavior.

This is a common fallacy people make during debate. "I can't prove it is true, but you can't prove it isn't." The fact is that in debate, and in a court of law, the person making the positive existential claim ("Online games are addictive") carry the burden of proof. The opposition's only responsibility is to refute the claims once they are presented.

Diggo McDiggity
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

To respond to several of you, This discussion board is not a general subject posting board, and while I too enjoy debate, that's not what this board is here for. Our purpose here is very specific. We are here to help gamers and the friends and family of gamers whose lives have become problematic due to their excessive gameplay.

To Rushboyz,

We are only deleting posts that are either offensive, accusatory or that are off-topic. We don't delete posts that we don't agree with, only if they fit the criteria above.

Diggo

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Morfedel
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Reality, my friend.

There is nothing preventing you from necessarily barging into an AA meeting being held in a room of a community center, and boldly announcing that drinking is, in fact, just fine.

Would it be socially acceptable, however? No.

And thats what you are missing here. This is a message board version of an AA meeting, but for game addicts. NOT a forum for debate or discussion, any more than an AA meeting is there to debate the values of drinking - just to help people get away from it.

Why is that so hard to understand? Just because its in an electronic format, rather than a physical one, doesnt give anyone license to transform a "self help therapy group" into a "right to free speech" discussion.

And if it were otherwise? Then it would be illegal to ban people, on ANY message board, for breaking their rules and policies.

As a matter of fact... It never stopped Verant from banning people from their boards for breaking THEIR policies, did it?

Diggo McDiggity
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Rushboyz said,Quote: Lets be honest they really don't want the truth only opinions that match theirs everything else is removed. So much for general discussion and a free flowing of ideas and opinions Posts that are intentionally offensive or that are written to instigate argument or that are off-topic will be deleted.

Diggo

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tosha
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

/Salute to Morfedel. Thank you for understanding what we are trying to do here and trying to explain it to those who are very determined to get in our way.

Tosha
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Debating on-line game addiction and its effects are quickly falling upon my deaf ears. Debate is not what this board is about, and because more and more people are visiting, we are seeing more and more debates and dirt.

We at OLGA/OLG-Anon do not come into your community (may it be an EQ board or anything else) and argue and debate topics they may or may not be related. Why? Because your community, just like this one, exists for a reason. If you're not here for that reason, that's fine. Feel free to read posts and make comments, but do not start your own flames or attacks. If you don't have anything to say about on-line gaming addiction, then don't post. Simple. If you're confused, look at our mission statement.

We discuss on-line game addiction here. Yes, differing viewpoints are more than welcome. However, just be nice. Insensitive attacks will be deleted, moved, and sometimes ignored. This is not a place for lawsuits, or complaints about 'my post about McDonalds was deleted! you're violating my freedom of speech'

This board is open to all so that gamers who are truly seeking help can visit without worrying about registering or having to get a password.

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Rushboyz
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

Posts that are intentionally offensive or that are written to instigate argument or that are off-topic will be deleted...

Oops I guess having a frank open discussion with no swearing, name calling or flaming is offensive or supposedly written to instigate an arguemnet or that are off topic. I guess that is the the Scales of Justice where a blind...

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Re: Rushboyz...

Welcome to our membership.

You are very active on our board.

Perhaps you are seeing just a glimmer of yourself here.

We welcome you, and support you in your need to help yourself find answers for your life.

Should you like to break your cd's and send them to me, I would really appreciate, cause I am trying to get this crystal bowl filled up, so I can post it here, so we know, that "we are not alone".

You can send them to: Olganon
P.O. Box 724
Hudson, WI 54016

I look forward to getting them.

And I encourage you to keep coming back, and searching for your answer.

Sincerely.

Liz

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

Hcetrepus Crypt...
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Re: To those of you coming to defend the gaming hobby....

"Posts that are intentionally offensive or that are written to instigate argument or that are off-topic will be deleted."

I realize this is a private board but still censorship is still censorship in any form of fashion. No has ever cured an Illness by removing or treating the symptoms of it. It does nothing but perpetuate it. Better to get it out in the open and solve the problem at the root. Obcessive compulsive behavior will cause any individual to become addicted to some thing they enjoy. It just so happens that a lot of people enjoy gaming. Gaming is not the cause BUT because it is so enjoyable it is sure to attract this personalities to a higher degree. Again getting rid of gaming will only cause these people to look for another avenue of escape.

I said enough well wishes and please don't kill the messenger.

Hcetrepus Cryptwalker
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anonymous (not verified)
Re: Rushboyz...

Quote: I realize this is a private board but still censorship is still censorship in any form of fashion.That is a very broad stance, but yes, we "censor" this board. Our admin and moderators are just that. That is the entire purpose of our admin and moderator rights. This is not a public debate forum. This message board is here to help addicted on-line gamers.

Get over it, and if you don't like, leave. Once again, the purpose of this board is to help those seeking it.

Lilgeekboy
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??

The founder of this board obviously knows little about how EQ works. I could smash my CD's and mail them to you and keep playing forever.

I hate to slam anyone who has been hurt but maybe if the founder showed this much concern about people lives then she would never have had the need to create it.

Food for thought

anonymous (not verified)
Lilgeekboy...

If you bothered to browse our website or read other posts, you'd learn that breaking your online game CDs is a symbolic action. It is not intended to stop you completely. You can either download the game, reload it from a previous copy on your drive, or buy another copy from a store. Before you spout and attack, you might want to research what you're going to say so you don't look ignorant.

Tranthas
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Re: Lilgeekboy...

You asked why I'm here defending my hobby.

An activist group sympathizing with your cause here nearly destroyed my family's business (a gaming retail outlet). A kid running a roleplaying game behind the store flipped out one night and stabbed his ex-girlfriend half to death. He gets out in another 14 years or so.
For two weeks after the incident, the news was all over my father's business, proclaiming that roleplaying had led this boy to attempt murder. The truth is, he was crazy before we sold him his first book.

Not that you're all crazy; most of you simply don't have it within you to admit that you've caused your own problems. It's far easier to blame some faceless entity, like Sony. Whatever your reasons for following the blame-displacement path, it's still failure to take responsibility for your own decisions -- and employed at just the right time in just the right place, your weaknesses can starve my family.

I like to think it's a good enough reason.

anonymous (not verified)
Re: Lilgeekboy...

Quote: An activist group sympathizing with your cause here nearly destroyed my family's business (a gaming retail outlet).

I am sorry that your family was hurt this way. I know that there are a lot of people who think that gaming stores are somehow evil and bad. I dont believe that. I used to be a part owner of a gaming retail store myself and know that is not the case.

However, yet again I need to repeat myself that we are not placing blame on anybody. It is up to the individual who comes here seeking help. If they want to blame Sony, EQ, themselves, their mothers, or their neighbor-in-law for their compulsive gaming, we don't care because that is not what we are about. Do we have opinions of blame? Yes of course we do and you have heard some of them in here, but that does not mean that the organization of Olganon is here to finger-point and place blame. Again refer to the mission statement right above here.

Tosha

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Re: /sigh

I too, does not play EQ for a while (at least not this year, not until i get admission paper from university)
I am a firm believer that RL > all games, and many of my online friends believe the same..
But the fact that we cannot tolerate is that someone is blaming a game/or other stuff to get away from their own problem...
We are here to prove, we too, are normal ppl, as a friend says, if someone enjoy eating mud, are we supposed to label muds as "DO NOT EAT! extremely addictive"?
Definitely someone is neglecting his/her own responsibility or simply cannot face it (it might be a family trend)
just my 2cp

Sir Shadowcaller SoulcreamGrave Lord of Arias'TamaFinnin Ro

anonymous (not verified)
Re: /sigh

Quote: Definitely someone is neglecting his/her own responsibility or simply cannot face it (it might be a family trend)

My theory on all of these sayings is until you have walked in that person's shoes, do not judge.

I understand your opinion, like I said you have a right to it. But also understand that Liz has a right to hers. But what she doesn't have a right to be is judged by everybody here. I dont think many people here have lost a son, much less one to suicide. Dont ya think she is entitled to an opinion?

Nobody here is forcing you to change your opinion, we are not here for that.

Tosha

Morfedel
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Consider this....

Not everyone here is blaming Everquest, in and of itself. I was an addict, and I do not blame the game - I blame myself. And that's what I'm dealing with.

The discussion being made here is often quite subtle; what most people here are advocating is that, EQ is not evil, but rather, it's very very good at being perhaps the most entertaining computer game of all time.

It therefore generates a powerful lure to those who are vulnerable.

In other words: Verant's job, as a computer gaming company, is to create a product as entertaining as possible, to keep as many customers as possible. I do not think they were thinking, "Hey, let's addict people and destroy their lives," like a drug dealer.

No; they were just creating an entertaining game... and did far too good a job. Which ends up grabbing those more vulnerable.

After all... why is it that EQ is having far more reports of problems than, say, Civilization, Diablo 2, etc?

No; I do not blame the company. the responsibility for one's life choices lies WITH those individuals. However, it IS quite notable that EQ is the game drawing most of the problems, not diablo 2, not baldur's gate, not neverwinter nights.

That must be the case for a reason.

Hayzen
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Re: Consider this....

Quote: After all... why is it that EQ is having far more reports of problems than, say, Civilization, Diablo 2, etc?

Because a man killed himself, and his mother insists that EverQuest is the cause. So much so that there is a lawsuit pending. This negative attention obviously leads to media coverage. I am quite certain that if Diablo 2 or Civilization would have been on his computer screen that we would be hearing about them and their horrible qualities instead of EverQuest.

I'm sure most people here remember or know about when Rock and Roll and Elvis were considered evil and were condemned for having a negative influence on children.

I'm sure most people here remember or know about the controversies surrounding the game Dungeons & Dragons which came to light after a murder (it may have been more than one) that occured was blamed on the game. Also there was a book called The Dungeon Master by William Dearing about a college student who was spending time in the sewers underneath the college campus pretending they were a dungeon.

More recently you can look to the Columbine shootings, where it was found that these kids played a game called DOOM. A game where the object is to go around shooting and killing monsters.

Or over the summer we heard lots of reports about children being kidnapped. These reports made it seem like an epidemic of child snatching was going on, when in fact it was occuring no more frequently than normal. Same things with murders, or just about anything else.

They're all the same. Online games are just the new flavor because of the recent press. Why do you think the news is so saturated with negative stories? These kinds of events get a lot of attention because they bring ratings. Because they are highly publicized, it makes it appear as if these events are the norm, when in fact they are the extreme minority.

Edited by: Hayzen at: 10/20/02 12:14:08 am

anonymous (not verified)
Re: /sigh

Again, there is no lawsuit pending right now.

Hayzen, I agree with most of your points. I think the media sensationalizes a lot of things, including those that you mentioned. However, Olganon is not about sensationalizing anything. Or putting blame anywhere. It is up to the individual member where to put his or her blame as to why they started compulsively gaming, not us. Now we can debate in an adult and healthy manner these aspects of gaming, but please be aware that the organization is in existence to help and support those in need. Thats all.

Tosha

anonymous (not verified)
Tranthas...

First of all, I enjoy reading your posts here. They are intelligent, to the point, and not without consideration.Quote: It's far easier to blame some faceless entity, like Sony. Whatever your reasons for following the blame-displacement path, it's still failure to take responsibility for your own decisions -- and employed at just the right time in just the right place, your weaknesses can starve my family.Using the economic state of your family as a means of protecting your business, is a very weak argument. It is sad that your family and possibly your business was hurt by the incident you describe, as I also share in your economic distress (mine is from the state of our nation). However, making a statement like this allows others to defend other addictions such as alcohol or drugs, with the same argument. There is a line that needs to be drawn between the opposing morals of this defense. Personally, I don't know where it is, but I do know that following this argument is bound to lead to a fallacy.

I don't want to attack your position, but I do want to express my concerns with it.

Please understand that Liz's crusade against Sony (and yes, I like the term crusade) is separate from OLGA/OLG-Anon. Although she is the founder of our organization, we do not blame any game developer, nor do we have any stance on the sale and use of role-playing and/or on-line games. We are only here to offer our help to those on-line gamers who are seeking support.

I know you've posted more recently since your post within this thread. If you already know all about our organization's purpose, then please forgive the repetitiveness. Once again, I appreciate you participation here, and hope you revisit to post again.

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Saethan
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Joined: 07/05/2002 - 9:39pm
Re: Consider this....

Simple solution: Make a debate board. Move all topics that are debates to it.

(then see how many posts you have left ;-) )

Skarza Haete
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Last seen: 9 years 6 months ago
Joined: 10/20/2002 - 10:50am
Re: /sigh

I am sorry but I believe this organization/board are here as a means to perpetuate Liz Wooly's crusade to blame someone else for her son's death. Whereas it was indeed tragic he committed suicide, there is a point where we must take responsibility for our own actions. Her son's mental illness was not a result of him playing a game. Flame me/remove my post but I do feel this is something that I had to say. Sometimes in order for people to feel better about themselves they have to throw someone else under the bus. Ms. Wooly is doing nothing more than tryin to throw SOE under the bus to make her feel better. Why didn't she hold an intervention to get her son help if he was so far gone? According to reports seen on TV he had disconnected his phone and wouldn't answer his door? Why didn't she have him committed or placed under psychiatric supervision when this happened? Where is her accountability? In todays society we are so quick to blame everyone else for our misfortunes, yet unwilling to accept culpability for our own actions or lack thereof.

Skarza Haete
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Diggo McDiggity
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Joined: 07/04/2002 - 9:43am
Re: Tranthas...

Quote: I am sorry but I believe this organization/board are here as a means to perpetuate Liz Wooly's crusade to blame someone else for her son's death.It's not. Liz's issue with her son is exclusive from the goals and intentions of OLGAnon and this board. You may have noticed that neither OLGAnon, nor OLGAnon's URL or discussion board was mentioned in the 48-Hours show.Quote: Why didn't she hold an intervention to get her son help if he was so far gone? According to reports seen on TV he had disconnected his phone and wouldn't answer his door? Why didn't she have him committed or placed under psychiatric supervision when this happened?She did all of those things and more, and this has been explained in detail in at least half a dozen posts on this board. If you had taken time to read them, you would have seen this.Quote: In todays society we are so quick to blame everyone else for our misfortunes, yet unwilling to accept culpability for our own actions or lack thereof.You don't say...

Diggo

eMail - Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
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Addicted to Everquest from July, 1999 to May, 2002
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Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002

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