A small observation to all who post here.

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Sidilian
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A small observation to all who post here.

I am a pretty hardcore online gamer but also think I have a fairly stable mind when it comes to reading, and judging character or lack of therein.

You say to yourself "so?"

Let me put this in terms both sides can understand. Games can be an escape. So can drugs, gambling, prostitutes, etc...

All people are NOT created equal and handle their real life issues in different manners. The person who one day quits using illicit drugs with their friends are frowned upon and misunderstood by the peers they have sorrounded themselves with.

To you gamers like me I say this. Remember all those class discussions about Class_01 "sucking" and "my class is better than yours" and such nonsense? The final consensus to those arguments were that all classes were ok, it is just the person behind them and how they handle their character as to how well they do in their EQ "career." (disregard career I couldn't think of something better...)

This can be said about life also. How you handle your real life depends on the person you are. People that sincerely want to help those they think need it are rare indeed in this day and age so any effort by these people should be applauded.

In upper levels of business when someone comes to me with a problem I ask them what their solution is. This provokes real thought and provides them with a means to better themselves by looking inward to see what "they" can do to help the efforts of the ones around them.

In this same respect there are some out there that cannot formulate the thought needed to create a solution to the problem they have encountered.

Such is business, such is life.

Even being a hardcore gamer and avid computer enthusiast I do not look down on the efforts of these people(OLGA) to provoke thought and real life decisions in people who may need their help.

Everyone should be warned that by posting your extreme points of view you sound to the other side just as extreme in the other direction. I don't agree with 100% of the posts here but that does not mean I am for or against this websites efforts nor against the gamers that arrive here. It just means my mind is open.

Maybe a middle ground can be reached instead of making knee @#%$ assumptions about the efforts of a person to better their little corner of the world.
Again not saying the creator of this website is 100% correct or even that they are going about it the right way--that is not my intention... I am just saying that maybe you should think about how hard it is for you to get your passionate idea across in text before you judge others.

All I ask is for you to think.

Now it is time to make dinner and then raid the Temple Of Veeshan with my love

Be well everyone.

-Sid
59th level Wizard
51st Level Shadow Knight
31st level Shaman

p.s. My apologies if this was somewhat muddled, I wasn't sure the direction I was taking
 

lizwool
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

It is post like yours, that show that all gamers are not just trying to protect their drug of choice, by their desparate, insensitive posts.

Thank you.

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

Meridious
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

WOOT!

I agree!

Online games CAN be an escape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But if that is true then we CHOOSE to use that method of escape....it isn't forced on us by some blood-induced, chemically based, physical need to play an online game.

It's a decision WE make and WE are responsible for thst decision.

Nothing more, nothing less.

**Where we go one, we go all**

--Merid--

Lelgolas Elfinator
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Quote:But you really don't need to be here, unless you want to leave the game, and are looking for support to do so.
but without the other side of the fence you are only looking at one angle, dont you need to know and understand the whole truth before you can be cured? not just people coddling the side that they suffer from too?

Quote:If you want to keep playing, GO ON A HEAD! And that goes for all of the other gamers that are here right now!
Go back to your stupid game and play away! We don't care!

Thanks for the permission. I will keep playing, I still find it fun as I have yet to warp into the relm of the rest of the people who seem to be sucked in and this game turns into real life and then they cant get out. I guess Im a slow learner. and "stupid game" you remind me of my son, I tell him all the time "son, it isnt a stupid toy. inanimate objects cannot be stupid. they possess no brain and no soul and no thoughts so they cannot be stupid.". He is 5, I am hoping he grows out of it by the time he grows up and has some kids of his own. And you DO care, if you didnt care you wouldnt get so **** mad about it.

Quote:If you decide you want to leave the game, and are looking for support to do that, than, we welcome you, with open arms.

If I decide I want to leave the game, then I will cancel my billing, uninstall it and move on. The only problem I may have is if fails during uninstall, then I may need some support, though I dont know this would be the place for that one.

Infact, Im willing to bet that most people, at least socially and mentally balanced ones could leave without support, then again that goes against everything here, doesnt it?

Meridious
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

At last, it comes.

Silence the opposition by censorship. It worked for Hitler...but only for a very short time.

So, you think no one will step up and say it all over again?

I am only one voice.

Are you going to throw us all out?

**Where we go one, we go all**

--Merid--

Toric Seerson
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Oh Liz so glad you used the word "drug".

Being a toxicologist I love that word...Games are not drugs.

You cannot put a game or any other form of mental endeavor in the same category as a drug.

You and many others try to equate mental activites to drugs because drugs and mental activites may stimulate the pleasure and adrenalin centers..however, you would have to be a trained Yogi to achive the levels of endomorphins that a drug can enduce.

Gaming cannot approach the physiochemical imbalance in the body that occurs because of a drug. It can't even come close.
You Can Not become addicted to an activity.

You can become obsessed with an activity. But if such an obsessin occurs then some other mental illness is the cause. Not the game.

You have already stated that your son had epilepsy and I belive I also heard that he had schizphenia. Those are "real" physio-chemical problems. That he became obsessed with a game was a symptom, not the cause of his eventual suicide.

Dear get some grief couseling and stop this blame game.

Stop reinforcing this false idea of gaming addiction idea for others who need real help for real problems. This is not only harmful to them but to the general public who you are deluding with your quotes from pseudo-scientists and your publicity hype for your frivolous lawsuit.

Toric Seerson
Venerable Elder
Circle of Virtue
Paladin of the 43rd circle

lizwool
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Any addiction, including on-line gaming, affects the same part of the brain and re-wires it, that is why, for some people, it becomes an addiction, and not just a choice.
People are addicted to gambling and that is an activity.

Quote:You have already stated that your son had epilepsy and I belive I also heard that he had schizphenia. Those are "real" physio-chemical problems. That he became obsessed with a game was a symptom, not the cause of his eventual suicide.Epiliepsy is a physical disease, not a mental disease. He was schizoid, which is a far cry from schizophrenic.

Just because you read something in the paper, or heard it on the media, does not mean it is true. They have misrepresented a LOT of things I said.

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

GoggwinGoodwind
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Quote:Just because you read something in the paper, or heard it on the media, does not mean it is true. They have misrepresented a LOT of things I said.

I'll bet you a fiver they've misrepresented gamers throughout the years much more than they have you!
AD&D
Doom
Duke Nukem
EverQuest

All have been blamed at one time or another for sparking killings, suicides or devil worship. I'm pretty sure theres more, but these are the ones that spring to mind.

(and yes, even on my home boards I tend to stick to one-liners, not many topics can get more than a paragraph out of me ~ I don't do negative, I don't do angry. dissapointed, sure. But mostly I'm just a weirdo Brit-Humor-dispenser )

lizwool
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Re: Gwildor

Turn down your screen - it is not bright here. I tried to pick a soothing color.

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

lizwool
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Re: Gwildor

I write the post, and than l read it, as a post.

I usually find misspelled words or need to add or change a word here or there, or find a synonym, so I am not always using the same word.

Sometimes, I must get info from a different post.

Just refining the post, that is all.

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

GwildorBertanzetti
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Re: Gwildor

Use the PREVIEW option. It's your friend.

When all your posts have 'edited by lizwol blahbla' at the bottom of them, it makes it look like you changed what you had originally said in a post.

Goregut Fleshripper
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Just a simple note before I leave never to return again.

I am a 28 year old college grad who began playing EQ shortly after it went public.

In my younger years I may have reached a point of Online Game Addiction. But that was when all i had to do was finish the small amount of homework I had and then i had HOURS to kill. While my compatriots went out drinking or acting otherwise foolishly I was at home typing away on my computer. Don't get me wrong, occassionally I went along with them, but not often enough to get in any trouble.

Now I am a little older, I took nearly a year off the game while I was searching for my niche in life, and having found it I returned to the game. EQ is an inexpensive way for me to spend a quiet evening with friends after long hours at work.

I have outside interests I pursue. But I do disagree with one thing I read on your site that I MUST comment on. I am not trying to flame anybodys beliefs... In the Are you addicted section, the founder stated that casual play gets you nowhere in this game... I have to disagree. In three years of casual play I was able to level three characters to decent levels a 60 warrior, a 40 shaman, and a 52 necromancer. But I don't consider that an accomplishment... it is the friends I made and whom I still know and cherish that are my accomplishments. It is the people who chat with me when they feel overwhelmed by the stresses of real life or when they start focusing on the game more than on the fun. Casual players can succeed in EQ, but I will say this... If you find yourself spending real world cash to get cyber platinum just walk away. Ma'am I wish you all the best, and I am sorry for your loss. Goodbye

Sorry had to EDIT... guys if yer coming here just to cause trouble, get back on the game I'm sure you are missing a great raid.

GOREGUT FLESHRIPPER
Level 60 - Epic Wielding Warlord

Edited by: Goregut Fleshripper at: 12/13/02 4:54:06 am

GwildorBertanzetti
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Quote:Just a simple note before I leave never to return again. I am a 28 year old college grad who began playing EQ shortly after it went public. In my younger years I may have reached a point of Online Game Addiction. But that was when all i had to do was finish the small amount of homework I had and then i had HOURS to kill. While my compatriots went out drinking or acting otherwise foolishly I was at home typing away on my computer. Don't get me wrong, occassionally I went along with them, but not often enough to get in any trouble. Now I am a little older, I took nearly a year off the game while I was searching for my niche in life, and having found it I returned to the game. EQ is an inexpensive way for me to spend a quiet evening with friends after long hours at work. I have outside interests I pursue. But I do disagree with one thing I read on your site that I MUST comment on. I am not trying to flame anybodys beliefs... In the Are you addicted section, the founder stated that casual play gets you nowhere in this game... I have to disagree. In three years of casual play I was able to level three characters to decent levels a 60 warrior, a 40 shaman, and a 52 necromancer. But I don't consider that an accomplishment... it is the friends I made and whom I still know and cherish that are my accomplishments. It is the people who chat with me when they feel overwhelmed by the stresses of real life or when they start focusing on the game more than on the fun. Casual players can succeed in EQ, but I will say this... If you find yourself spending real world cash to get cyber platinum just walk away. Ma'am I wish you all the best, and I am sorry for your loss. Goodbye

THAT is what I was speaking of when I said...

Quote:...trying to read endless posts with no punctuation and or scentance structure,

How do you expect anyone, let alone us fried folk, to read that garble?

Gwildor Bertanzetti Orkko Orkko Ekkimus Oliverr Quween
Reptilian Empire

Goregut Fleshripper
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Gwildor sounds like ya need more than one kind of twelve step program.

GOREGUT FLESHRIPPER
Level 60 - Epic Wielding Warlord

Seer Family
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Liz

I hardly believe everything I read in the papers. And neither should you.

You cannot be addicted to a game. Addiction is a complex biochemical reaction caused by the repeated metabolism of a chemical in the body.

Repeaded use of alcohol can cause the body to create far more alcohol dehdrogenase than needed, thus creating a "hunger" hunger for alcohol to use the enzyme.

Addiction caused by drugs can as you have noted be enhanced by the added increases in dopamine response. That also occurs in people with epilepsy and with many psycological conditions such as Compulsive Disorders. However, these are not true addictions.

True addiction requires a bio-chemical induction component.

Gaming in and of itself will only cause an approximately 10 to 14% rise in dopamine response.

The same as nay other intellectual activity such as math, writing this response, creative writing, or a jigsaw puzzle.

Cocaine in comparison , a true addiction will cause as much as a 50% rise over normal levels of dopamine. In additon with true addiction other enzymes such as the cytochrome P450 proteins are created which drive the hunger for the addictive substance.

Games do not have any such component.

You have already had a medical professional try to explain the mental illness issues which can surround the compulsion to game, gamble, shop etc... It is not an addiction.

Your son was mentally ill, he was not addicted to EQ. Sony is not to blame. The gamers who are coming here are not to blame.

And you 12 step program may give you and a few others a temporary warm fuzzy, but those who need help will log off your board still in need of help. Breaking their CDs will not help them.

Caitsith 53 Mage
Toric 44 Paladin
Shariona 45 Cleric
Aideen 21 Druid
Cybil 21 Mage
Roselyn 11 Enchanter

Multiple Personality..it's not a disorder...its a gaming skill.

Sionach
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Mrs. Wooley, I don't intend to be disrespectful here, but if your son was Schizoid, how can you possibly blame anything other than his mental illness for his death?

If anyone is uncertain as to basic details of that mental illness, I refer you to the following definition of Schizoid: www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe02.html

Based on the symptoms of this disorder, if he was not taking his meds as you state, it was only a matter of time before he spiraled into complete dysfunctionality and the eventuality of suicide. No one wants to believe their child is anything less than perfect, but I think you really need to take a look at what his mental state was. If you want to honor your son's memory, it seems your energy could be better spent working with organisations who try to help and find cures for Schizoid behaviour.

As Seer mentions, there is a world of difference between chemical addiction and psychological obsession. Your son was mentally ill (Schizoid) and psychologically obsessed with Everquest. His mental illness caused that state of obsession, the game itself did not.

Sionach An'Talamh, Retired Outrider

KruiziGrrl
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Oh, I'm a toxicologIST, Ooooh, I am a mental health PROFESSIONAL!!!!

You know, one of the things you learn in higher education is that human knowledge is constantly evolving. And the views of a common worker in a particular field, even if it was fairly specialized, certainly doesn't mean very much.

And modern science doesn't know everything. How recent was it that it was even proven that nicotine is addictive? And how recent was it that people still contest this "fact?" Remember when people thought the Earth was flat? Remember when there was no AIDS epidemic? Remember when, heck, there were no computers?

Even if you were the most renowned and foremost researcher in the field of online addiction, which you aren't, your personal beliefs only means so much until research proves you otherwise. There *is* research going on right now as to physiological effects of gaming, you know? Maybe you should go check it out. Until you are actively engaged in it or have some conclusive, published, and widely acknowledge scientific evidence, then maybe, just maybe you could present your opinions as opinions and hypotheses and not as truth.

Maybe you should consider refraining from referring to "old" materials, because after all, online gaming is a pretty ****ed new phenomenon, and none of us know very much about it, do we? At least the OLGANON coordinators are trying to address the problem, whatever the cause may be, whereas I don't know what you're trying to do. Let those people who are trying to quit, quit.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Help me ...Hold up HALF the SKY ...

Jynna Morrigan
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Quote:But you really don't need to be here, unless you want to leave the game, and are looking for support to do so.
To which I respond with a quote from the Gamers page of OLG-Anon:

Quote:You may be a gamer curious about your level of addiction, or you may know you need help and are seeking recovery.
...and a quote from the OLG-Anon About page:

Quote:OLGA/Olg-Anon is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes.
...and a second quote from the OLG-Anon About page:

Quote:Our message forums are available to all, regardless of bias or opinion. ___________________________________________________

Quote:If you want to keep playing, GO ON A HEAD! And that goes for all of the other gamers that are here right now!
I would think that if any of us had the burning desire to be playing EverQuest or any other online game at the moment, we would be. We certainly don't need to be told to do so.____________________________________________________

Quote:Go back to your stupid game and play away! We don't care!
Refer to comment for previous quote. Also, it seems to be, based on the information contained on the OLG-Anon website, that you DO care...after all, someone who plays the game is your target. You want them to stop playing. Why chase them away by claiming now that you could care less?
____________________________________________________

Quote:If you decide you want to leave the game, and are looking for support to do that, than, we welcome you, with open arms.

See comments on first quoted text at the top.

 

lizwool
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Sionach,

Before Shawn started playing EQ, he was not Schizoid. It was only after he played it for several months, that the illness was there. The longer he played, the worse he got.

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

Leucol
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

lizwool,

You better talk to a mental health professional...a game cannot cause a person to be schizoid. Hun, your ignorance regarding mental disorders is staggering.

lizwool
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Than how do you explain, that he was not schizoid before he started playing the game?

He was not withdrawn, he had a job, he went out, he was social, he had outside acitivies, he was not afraid to be in groups.

None of the schizoid traits came about, until after he played the game for several months.

Edited by: lizwool at: 12/14/02 7:56:31 am

What you do may seem insignificant, but it's important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

Van Eberhard
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

I believe that this deserves a bump and an explanation. Mrs. Wooley is now expanding her beliefs that EQ not only caused her son's suicide, but also is responsible for his mental illness as well?
I believe all the followers/members/advocates of this site most assuredly need to know what you mean by this comment.
If this site is to help the people who have gaming problems, willl you be telling them that they can also cause mental illness, such as "Schizoid" problems?

Thanks for any response.

Jarochai Alabaster
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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Wanting to respond to the initial post first...I agree wholeheartedly. I've played EQ for 2 years. I don't think I was ever addicted to the game, but I met plenty who I felt were. Many of them went on to retire from EQ, many of them still play.
For some of us, (Myself included here) this is nothing more than a game. We play for entertainment, and never cross the line that distinguishes EQ from reality. When something comes up in RL, we either cancel our EQ plans or log of, if we're already playing.
Then there are those unfortunates who cannot do this. I've met addicts of every type, and a psycological addiction to a game can be unbelieveably consuming. Nothing like an addiction to heroin or crack, but bad nonetheless. Debilitating.
For those of you here who have sought the support to help quit the game, I commend you. On your resolve, on your community, on your humility to accept when you need help.
To those of you trolling (Many of which I know, !!Gwildor!!), for shame. Leave other communities alone you fools.

I have retired from EQ. When I first started playing, it took most of my free time. It was then that I felt the most powerful draw of the game, but I still don't think I was ever addicted. I can sympathize, regardless - I've been member to 12 step programs and support groups before. They all serve their purpose when utilized properly.
And now that I've played out the fun of the game, I simply don't feel like playing. Some would call me fortunate I guess. But regardless, you all still have your community here. You have your collective strength to help you all individually. You are lucky in that you didn't have to do it alone - you had each other.

Jarochai Alabaster 53rd Dwarven VicarHusband to Gwildor BertanzettiSummoner of Beer
"When twilight draws near, when you are pushed to the very limits of your soul, when it seems that all you have left are the dead remnants of the fabric of your life - believe."
Disturbed

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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Quote:Oh, I'm a toxicologIST, Ooooh, I am a mental health PROFESSIONAL!!!!

No, those other posters were. You, apparently, are sarcastic and not very bright.

Quote:You know, one of the things you learn in higher education is that human knowledge is constantly evolving. And the views of a common worker in a particular field, even if it was fairly specialized, certainly doesn't mean very much.

What crackerjack institute of higher learning imparted that backward world view on you? Basically what you are saying is 'Because sometimes people find out new things, no one, not even specialists in their fields, can be listened to, for any information.'.

Do you see spots? Does Elvis talk to you? No, really, I mean it.

Quote:And modern science doesn't know everything. How recent was it that it was even proven that nicotine is addictive? And how recent was it that people still contest this "fact?" Remember when people thought the Earth was flat? Remember when there was no AIDS epidemic? Remember when, heck, there were no computers?

What's your point? Really? That once upon a time, people didn't know things? Wow! Remember the caveman days, when people didn't know about FIRE? Does that mean that I can't make the claim that fire exists today? Does that mean I can't explain how to make a fire? No, it doesn't, you mental midgit. Join reality, with the rest of us.

Quote:Even if you were the most renowned and foremost researcher in the field of online addiction, which you aren't, your personal beliefs only means so much until research proves you otherwise.

Do you see the logical inconsistancy in your statements? Or are you willfully blind to your own ignorance?

There is an unresolveable contradiction between the statement that "your personal beliefs only means so much until research proves you otherwise. " and "And modern science doesn't know everything. ". Pick one! Either flatly deny everything that people say they "know" because it hasn't been proved by 'research' or claim that there are things that can be 'known' after they have been 'researched' and that specialists in a particular subject can 'know' things!

Things like 'Games do not make people addicted to them'.

Quote:Maybe you should consider refraining from referring to "old" materials, because after all, online gaming is a pretty ****ed new phenomenon, and none of us know very much about it, do we?

You, least of all, I'd wager; if you think that me playing a video game would make me take my own life, you are seriously misguided and above all, wrong.

Anyone that cannot seperate reality from fantasy over a game, be it Everquest, or AD&D, or Pong, obviously had something wrong with them to start. Could the game have aggravated the situation? Sure, no doubt. Sometimes games frustrate the player.

It has nothing to do with the game, however, if that player chooses to exercise that frustration by beating their kids, drinking themselves silly, or end their own life. And everything to do with that player's preexisting condition, and the way they deal with frustration.

That's a personal problem, not a problem of the entire community.

In exactly the same way we won't remove alcohol from store shelves because some people can't handle drinking responsibly, and we don't sue the makers or distributers of alcohol for the actions of those who drink, games should not be blamed, or vilified by anyone, save the most misguided of people.

Here's something that you may be able to understand.

A steak would be bad for a baby to eat.
Therefore, we don't serve steak to babies.
We don't take the steak away from everyone.

Quote:At least the OLGANON coordinators are trying to address the problem, whatever the cause may be,

Address the problem? I've seen nothing but posts about how everquest *CAUSED* mental illness, with faulty evidence of cause. (He wasn't like that before...)

Quote:whereas I don't know what you're trying to do.

Oh, isn't it obvious? We're trying to disagree with *you* but apparently that's not allowed. My mistake, do hurry up and have me banned from this board, being that I said something that you likely can't refute any other way.

Quote:Let those people who are trying to quit, quit.

That is like saying that people who buy beer and enjoy it in the privacy of their own homes are promoting someone else's alcoholism. Less drama, mmkay?

And for those who compare censorship to being like Hitler, please refer to the 'Hitler Clause" in most highschool and above debating clubs...

'If the only way to strengthen your argument is to cite Hitler as an example, you've already lost".

It's overdone, folks. Nothing, and no one, will ever be as bad again, so stop using it as an example. The petty and immature act of banning me from the boards, or anyone from the boards, for disagreeing, is absolutely *nowhere* near the scale or even remotely requires referance to Hitler. It makes you look petty and stupid.

Anyway, I'll leave you all with something that you should, but won't, think about.

Fanatic:
Someone who can't change their mind, and won't change the subject.

HAGG.

Roggulbuk Bonesmasher
Warlord of Clan Bashemded
An Cat Dubh
Me Mudders Yungust Son
Less babies, mor fibur!!

Shinies

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Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Contiguity does not prove causation. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

It's sad one would use a potentially helpful service as a disguise for one's self-gratification in the unfair vilification of something misperceived to have hurt the individual.

Edited by: Breoghan at: 12/15/02 8:25:07 am

Van Eberhard
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Last seen: 9 years 6 months ago
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Joined: 12/14/2002 - 6:30pm
Re: A small observation to all who post here.

I believe that this deserves a bump and an explanation. Mrs. Wooley is now expanding her beliefs that EQ not only caused her son's suicide, but also is responsible for his mental illness as well?
I believe all the followers/members/advocates of this site most assuredly need to know what you mean by this comment.
If this site is to help the people who have gaming problems, willl you be telling them that they can also cause mental illness, such as "Schizoid" problems?

Thanks for any response.

Nallavenia
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Joined: 12/10/2002 - 5:06am
Re: A small observation to all who post here.

Liz and kruizzi,
I am, i think the word would be aghast, Okay liz... schizod, i almost regret to say but i belive that the information you have gotten, has been twisted to generate the facts that you want to see, and in truth are not really facts, but your own misconceptions that you hold as truth, Mental illness, for the most part occurs in the teens, A game CANNOT create a mental illness, its already there, and has always been there, i am disgusted to the point where i cannot find words to use, at the both of you.

All in all, i am sad that a human being cannot see past their own hands, i am sad that a person is contradicting herself in a argument (kruizzi) and i am sad, that liz is saying a game, and the word gamers she is using as a stigma, once you label liz, you fail to see the faces and the emotions of a genuine human being, and like you liz, have hurt deeply,

its pointless to throw how much pain one has taken on in life, simply that, it hurts, and when you/if you recover you become (hopefully) a better person for it. Your blaiming eq for the loss of your son, When my brother was killed, the man who killed him walked away without a day in jail. who do i blaime?do i blaime the movie theater that brother went to? do i blaime the car manufactors, do i blaime even the brewing company that, that man purchashed his alchool from, do i blaime the courts? No liz i have seen enough suffering and blood to last me 5 life times, there is nothing to blaime it simply happends, what ever the cause, was it happend. and yes its terriable, every loss of human life is terrialbe, but in most places human life isn't worth very much.

I am digressing. all you can truly do is let go of it, yes the anger will remain, for a good length of time, and then the saddness and then the passing thoughts of a person you knew once long ago, and then a bitter sweet memorie, its coping, its dealing. all you can do, is put one foot in front of the other, I am aghast and yet i realized, that through this time, it still hurts you.

The words you see posted directed at you only twist the knife in an already festering wound. What you need is help, help for your own self, I belive Diggy has his life to where he can reach out and help other people, guide them along the way, and as he mentioned he saw that he had a probelmn and dealt with it. Liz, your hurt colors what you say and do, take time, and walk away from it, and as you said to me go smell the rose's. The demons i spoke of in a earlier post you say stay hidden, they are not hidden for you the run rampent, deluding your vision. I cannot say that i am a health professional i cannot say that i have some great technical experitise, all i can say is that i am a veteran, and my time in the service i was too motivated in something i should have never done. And when i do have children they are going to ask me what i did, and some how i have to explain to them that i spent the better days of my youth, as a highly trained killer of men, i am not happy about that, it was the sacrifiice made, and maybe that sacrifice will be worth it, when i make sense out of it in my own head.

 digress yet again. Try so very hard to not label people as gamers, thats the same mentality as other racial slurs. And not so much bring down the games, more so face what is stressing you and find some way to deal with it, and then over come it, not run from it, i belive our modern culture has indirectly brought us up to run and blaime everything, and to shrug off our personal responsiablity, i am not saying you failed in your duties as a mother, i don't think really anybody has, (to my knowledge) but don't fail as a older member of humanity that only spreads ignorance, but instead as a carpenter once did over 2000 years ago turn the other cheek,

see these people who come to this board, yes maybe a few want to harass, and just get a rise out of you, ignore them, they will grovel away and find something new to go after. where eventual life its self will catch up to them, and despence the justice they deserve for all of the harmful things they have done to people, we all collective live in some pretty bad times, our country itself titters on the brink of war, and should that war break out many friends, sons, daughters, brothers sisters, husbands and wives may be lost to that war, and lost quiet horriably. chemicle warfare isn't very pretty.

if i was to die tomorrow, and some how, my "message" got out, all it would be is for everybody across the world to take just 30 seconds and understand where that other person is coming from, and try to accept that other person, for being unique and a wonderful human being. Thats all i think anybody really wants is to be acknowledged in a postive way. not torn down.

I think i have said enough
thank you for letting me post
 

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