The research paper I mentioned....

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cnjmorris
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The research paper I mentioned....

is not profound. I was told I could write on anything and given my past play times in Everquest this is what I wrote.

Feel free to offer input.

You can get it in nicer Microsoft Word format (.doc) here: www.sixanswers.com/esc/Gaming.doc
and in Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) format here: www.sixanswers.com/esc/Gaming.pdf

Edited by: cnjmorris at: 9/2/02 2:19:40 am

lizwool
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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

Interesting paper, cnjmorris.
One thing, I would like to add, is in the past month, I have been notified of two more suicides as a result of EQ and one attempted suicide.

These are only the ones I know about. I know there are countless others.

I would like to see research done on all suicides in the past 3 years, and forward, and see how many of the people were addicted to EQ.

This is something people refuse to look at, because, as one person in your paper said, Quote: On the subject of game addiction Squire says: "The notion that games are powerful enough to ruin someone's life is just ridiculous. The main concern people have is that technology is overpowering people and making them helpless. That's happened with every new medium that has come along -- even books were once regarded with suspicion." (Scheeres)We have already seen countless of real life experiences where these games have ruined real lives - look at EQ Widows. Daily, people write in, saying how the game is ruining their families lives. I have 5 2" binders of other examples, that I have received or found, since the first article went out, about my son, in April, that prove these games do ruin real lives.
One thing I am finding out, is people who have no experience playing these games, or who do not know people who are addicted, will bend over backwards and swear up and down that the problem is the person, and not the game. This includes police officers who find people dead in front of their computers, with the Everquest screen up. They will not say, it was because of the game.

For God sake, if it was something else, why would they do it in front of the EQ game? Why not end it in bed, or jump off of a bridge?

People are protecting these games, and they do not care about what is happening to the addicts and their families.

They refuse to face reality because what?? It is unknown?? They cannot accept the fact that this is happening in our society?? That our fears are coming true right before our eyes?? "This new technology will be the death of us all" (quote by William Schatner).

Your quote: Quote: When For adults the responsibility lies solely on the shoulders of the gamer. You choose to play, or not to play. Part of being an adult is being able to make responsible decisions.This is very typical response of the majority of society that has not first handedly seen the affects of these games on gamers and their families. One thing about addiction, cnjmorris, is there becomes a point when there is no longer a choice to play the game, the gamer becomes driven to play the game - it has now turned from a choice to an addiction. The person cannot stop, IF they want to.
Not only, am I a mother of a son who killed himself because of this addiction, but I also went through an addiction phase myself. As an Adult Child of an Alcoholic, there was a point in my life that I did not know which way was up, or how to get there. I needed tools, to learn how to live life as a responsible adult and had none, because of the way I was raised. I have been through A.A., treatment, family treatment, A.C.O.A. therapy, eating therapy, you name it. I know what an addiction is and I have overcome them, not by sitting on my arrears and withdrawing from society by playing computer games, because life is so hard, but by going out and learning and finding the tools I needed to continue life as a responsible adult.

Addiction is not a choice and when a person becomes addicted, there is hell to pay for their families and for them. The entire unit becomes dysfunctional.

Also, cnjmorris, my career is in computers - starting as a computer programmer in 1985. I know the capabilities of computers, and the people writing them. I am not afraid of computers, like a lot of older people are. I do understand how they work, which a lot of people do not, that is why I believe so many people are afraid to place the blame where it belongs - on the corporation who hires people to write these addicting games - but because it is a corporation, they no longer have to be responsible for what they are contributing to society - they are being praised because they have figured out how to con money out of people while ruining their lives and the lives of their families and loved ones - only the gamer has to be responsible, because he is a lone individual - the sucker to fall for this "new life".

There are too many games out there, that do not have the same results as EQ, Ultima Online, etc., to say we cannot blame this chaos that is just starting, on the games.

I think you should mention our website in your paper.

Also, our last name is spelled Woolley.

Your quote: Quote: No matter how you define addiction, one fact remains: Internet gaming is going to get worse before it gets better. is right on.

Edited by: lizwool at: 9/4/02 3:49:33 am

Liz Woolley

cnjmorris
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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

Sorry about the name. I double checked it but must have had a bad source.
Quote: This is very typical response of the majority of society that has not first handedly seen the affects of these games on gamers and their families. One thing about addiction, cnjmorris, is there becomes a point when there is no longer a choice to play the game, the gamer becomes driven to play the game - it has now turned from a choice to an addiction. The person cannot stop, IF they want to.

It may be the typical response, but I assure you that I am not unaware or uncaring. I played Everquest for 3 years.

There may be extreme cases in which a person with a mental condition could find themselves addicted to a game. I won't, however, support societies increasing trend to blame anything but the individual.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe parents today are breeding inferior intellectually challenged individuals.

People have always had interests, always done them in excess, there are even work-a-holics (sp?). Don't people kille themselves over work related stress? Should we place warnings outside our jobs "may cause addiction, work in moderation?"

I am not trying to be harsh, I just think that people need more self control. Should I keep playing or go to work. Well I like playing better....

Everquest is different than a lot of forms of current entertainment in that it allows social interaction (as opposed to single player games, television, movies, etc). It isn't the game that causes suicide it is the interaction, someone hurt them.

The problem with blaming the interaction for the death is that if they weren't playing the game they would either be out socializing or sitting home alone. I assure you that for every person who kills themselves over everquest there are 100 who killed themselves because they were rejected.

There may be rare cases in which someone killed themselves over some in game failing. That isnaEU(tm)t normal. That person obviously had problems, but even so, there are 100 times as many who killed themselves because they failed at or felt useless over something outside of a game.

The 2001 World Almanac says that 29,264 people killed themselves in 2001, the 8th leading cause of death. Lets say that last year 30 people died in front of their everquest screen. That is one tenth of a percent of the years suicides. Even then who is to say that the game had anything to do with it. Maybe someone was being rejected in lifeaEU| logs into a fantasy game for companionship and still canaEU(tm)t find anyone. They kill themselves and now it is the gameaEU(tm)s fault?

I am curious. What do you suggest is the solution? Should all games be banned? Just everquest? Just games that people use for escape? I just donaEU(tm)t see where this is all going.

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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

cnjmorris,Quote: I am curious. What do you suggest is the solution? Should all games be banned? Just everquest? Just games that people use for escape? I just donAC/a,!a,,C/t see where this is all going.Actually, the members and admin of OLG-Anon have been discussing that quite a bit recently. Obviously society can't ban the games, as that would be a direct attack on free speech and who knows what other amendments. Here's what we've discussed:

1.) Force MMORPG and similar game developers to put a time limit on their players' connections. Therefore as an example, let's say that a player logging into EQ one day will only be able to log in for up to a total of 4 hours that day. This will definitely force the gamer to attend to other affairs in his or her life. This is a very heavy-handed measure, but it is almost guaranteed to keep players from playing an MMORPG (or similar game) all day long. Some of the possible loop holes in this are gamers who buy multiple accounts to play longer than the limit. Game developers could make sure only one account per credit card and address, but then what about let's say two brothers who each want their own account? And if we find a solution to that, then gamers can just use another relative's address and slightly different name to get two accounts.

2.) Awareness. This is what we're doing right now and it is our primary focus. If gamers are aware of the possibility of addiction and understand the consequences, then may be some will decide not to play or find a way to help regulate their game time.

3.) Recovery. Those already addicted are in dire need of help. We try to offer our support here, as well as enable the channels of peer to peer support.

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cnjmorris
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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

While I appluad your efforts (because some people see the need for your work, and therefor it is worthwhile) I still believe that the main problem is a society more selfish than ever, thinking life is all about pleasure.

Regardless, as you stated you can't keep people from playing, they will use multiple accounts and they will play multiple games.

Even if you could, people would just find a new vice, there is a much deeper problem.

As far as awareness. You might find that 1%, and I don't trivialize any form of progress, are actually detered by warning... but then you may negate that with 2% or 3% that are intrugued by the addiction warning. Game might be addictive? Might be good then.

Recovery may be needed, but I hope you address responsibility.

I am not putting down what you are doing. There are lots of topics that will be talked about all day and at the end of the day have made no difference. Doesn't mean they aren't still worth talking about.

Edited by: cnjmorris at: 9/4/02 11:27:17 pm

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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

Quote:

Even if you could, people would just find a new vice, there is a much deeper problem.

This is quite an assumption. You presume that compulsive or addicted on-line gamers who no longer play will find another compulsion or addiction. No one can make a claim like this, because every person is different, and some may find something else to drown their lives in, and others may come away as a better person, learning from the experience. 

Quote:

As far as awareness. You might find that 1%, and I don't trivialize any form of progress, are actually detered by warning...

but then you may negate that with 2% or 3% that are intrugued by the addiction warning.Although this is another assumption, I do agree with you that a small percentage of compulsive and addicted gamers will benefit from our organization. However, when you compare the number of MMORPG players in the world (possibly more than 1 million, as there are well over 400 thousand EQ subscribers today) with that small percentage, you're looking at roughly 1000 players who recover from addiction and 2000 - 3000 players who heed the warning. This is of course, according to your numbers, which are an assumption. Even with this very negative view, the numbers are still high.

Given those assumptions, this website and our organization is worthwhile even if we only help a handful of people. Saving one person's life from addiction, misery, and possibly suicide is always worth our efforts.Quote: Recovery may be needed, but I hope you address responsibility.It would be very difficult to promote our advice and help others without addressing responsibility. If you look at our 12 step program for OLG-Anon, you will notice that it addresses responsibility. Right now, we are really pushing for awareness and recovery of on-line game addiction. I know Liz spends much of her free time doing just that. We will soon be seeing a lot of media coverage of on-line gaming addiction, including mentions our our website.

I sense quite a bit of pessimism from your posts. If I were to guess, I'm sure that negativity was mostly generated while playing an MMORPG like EQ. Fortunately, you are an intelligent person and I know you see through some of the on-line gaming addiction, especially in the research paper you wrote. Congratulations on its completion and I hope you continue to post here.

==============================================
Ron recently found an article to back up my numbers, and actually, world-wide, the numbers are higher than I mentioned.Quote: There are about 1 million online game players in the U.S. and millions more overseas, particularly in South Korea, where there are several million players.-L.A. Times article: Online Bullies Give Grief to Gamers, By: ALEX PHAM

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Edited by: Dervish DuKot of Tristan at: 9/5/02 9:01:37 pm

Gottun Sum TA
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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

there are 278,058,881 people in the US.
there are approximately 29,200 suicides each year in the US.

approximantly .0105% of the population commits suicide.

Now, assuming that there are 300,000 EQ players in the world, and 30 a year (vastly exagerated guestimate, imo) commit suicide, then that is .0067% of the EQ population commiting suicide.

the differance being .0038%.

Based on those numbers, EQ players are commiting suicide LESS than non EQ players. The numbers speak for themselves. even given a generous margin or error, the differance between the numbers is too small to logically conclude that EQ leads to suicide, by any stretch of the imagination.

I believe that you people are looking at this all wrong.

Suppose for a moment that there is a 15 year old kid that has just moved to a strange new town, and doesnt have any friends in school, isnt very popular, and is very shy.

Now suppose he picks up a copy of Everquest, and through it learns how to effectively assert himself without fear of rejection, how to converse with people, how to type (a marketable skill), as well as finding a place where people will be able to judge him by his personality.

Perhaps this kid would have been on the path to drugs, or suicide before picking up EQ, but now he is much better for it.

Ok, when i first started playing online games it was for fun, and it still is, but along the way i have picked up many very valuable skills which transfer over to RL ; including (but not limited to) writing techniques (mostly from message boards), leadership skills (raid leading, ect), Typing (type around 75wpm now), Dedication, Responsibility, Conversational techniques, problem solving, made RL friends in game, the list goes on and on. i believe that i'm a more well rounded person because of online games.

Is there room people to become harmfully addicted? sure! but, on the same note, the same can be said for a variety of occupations from Work and School, to Drugs and Theft.

I think many people find Everquest a pleasent escape from a harsh reality and use it as such. the same way people use TV to escape, Drugs to escape, Sex to escape, Sports to escape, Food to escape, and Just about anything you can think of to escape.

its very easy to lable something as inherantly evil.

there have been more wars fought in the name of God than anything else. does that make religion inherantly evil?

i appologize for my arguementative attitute, but im trying to show a flip side to the some of the negatives which have been pointed out. Alot of times just seing a negative perspective can give someone a skewed view of what is really involved in things of this manner.

Edited by: Gottun Sum TA at: 9/8/02 2:25:38 am

cnjmorris
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Re: The research paper I mentioned....

Quote: there are 278,058,881 people in the US.
there are approximately 29,200 suicides each year in the US.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the math seems way off. Take 29,200 and divide it by 278,058,881 - I got .000105 which is actually way lower, percentage wise, than my very obviously high figure on yearly EQ suicides.

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Re: Gottum Sum Ta

Where did you get your numbers?

I believe since 1999, the number of mental health problems and suicides has dramatically increased.

Try to get help around here, if you have a problem. You maybe able to see someone in 6 months.

I wanted to go to grief counselling over this.

Couldn't even find a doctor who were still accepting patients. They are all full.

Liz Woolley

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Re: Gottum Sum Ta

I'm not going to debate the addiction vs. personal responsibility issue, in that it's a very complicated emtionally charged issue.

However I think what would you guys propose is a good question.

For instance, there is nothing you can do to make cigarettes inherently safe, theyaEU(tm)re basically poison. However do you believe that games are as equally bad?

I always believed that game companies should tone down their games from being the level oriented time sucking Skinner boxes that they are now. After all you never really cared about aEUoedingingaEU in D&D, it was just an aftereffect of the main purpose, which was the storytelling and role-playing.

I truly enjoy these games, but I donaEU(tm)t enjoy the necessity of spending hours in order to be able to do something in these games.

IaEU(tm)m hoping that just as the model T, these games will evolve to something more enjoyable like pizza and pen and paper D&D night with friends. We didnaEU(tm)t spend days playing for more power and aEUoefat lewtzaEU, just a single night a week having fun.

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Re: Ranger

Thank you so much for your post.
I am leaning in on this game in particular, because all of the "nasty" problems I have seen are when people have played Everquest.

Quote: I'm not going to debate the addiction vs. personal responsibility issue, in that it's a very complicated emtionally charged issue.I agree with you - that is difficult for someone who had not been addicted, or for someone who has not admitted they are addicted to fathom. I thank you for the statement and your entire post. It is the meat of what I am trying to say.

I totally agree with your post and it is so nice to hear someone else say the same thing.

I appreciate you coming here and sharing, so we know, we are not alone!

Feel free to come back and post often. I appreciate your time!

Liz

Edited by: lizwool at: 10/16/02 5:39:23 am

Liz Woolley

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Re: Ranger

CBS 8PM this coming friday, some news show (forget name and don't feel like looking it up) is doing a special on EQ addiction.

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