I pose this question, it seems that the solution that many pose is that a person accepts responsibility for his or her problem.
LetaEU(tm)s say for the sake of argument EQ is not addicting ( and by the way if it is EQ is a process addiction like gambling and not a substance addiction, different psychological, and biological processes involved) and the solution is for the person with the problem to accept responsibility and blame himself. My question is now what happens. Will this person be overwhelmed with great enlightenment? With this new found understanding will he let go of the game, and become the ubermensch that many of our budding psychologists imply themselves to be?
No, more than likely he blames himself, logs back on and continues doing what he always did, EXCEPT he now has a nice new label to beat himself with.
I worked at a crisis center for three years, and almost every night this same alcoholic would call, in talking to him (more often than not he was drunk) He never blamed his parents, or the government, or UFOaEU(tm)s or his wife, or the alcohol distributors for his problems. In fact he freely admitted he was a drunk, admitted that he had a major problem of his creation, and often felt so bad over the messes he created that in itself would start another round of binge drinking. He professed to wanting help, would go make an attempt at it every once in awhile, with the referrals I gave him , but regardless for accepting the blame, it never opened up any doors of enlightenment and sobriety.
I talked to a lot of people like that, and in my experience I have to say that placing blame or accepting blame (many of you would use the code word responsibility) never really fixed anything. Addiction counselors speak of a concept called aEUoeaddiction careersaEU where people go through periods of starting and stopping, sometimes for years before success. Beating people over the head with aEUoefree will, responsibilityaEU sticks doesnaEU(tm)t really speed that process.
Culann MacNessa Ranger of Surefall Glade
Guide, Hunter, Tracker Extrodinaire
"Stand Back! I'm going to summon my ranger pet Ninja Hamster "Fluffy the Mad"!
What I'm wearing at the moment
Agreed; there would be times I'd feel so guilty about playing, that I'd play more to try and alleviate that guilt, and it would become a vicious cycle....
Understanding the source of the problem is a major part of fixing it.
12-step programs have succeeded in helping many people, in fact. Its one reason why Alcoholics Anonymous adhere to it - because it has, in fact, been proven to work. It doesnt help EVERYONE, but there is no such thing as a blanket cure.
But when it has hellped so many, you can't argue with success.
Ikari,
Your not listening, IaEU(tm)m not advocating 12 step programs, or even saying EQ is addictive. What I am saying is that most often the use of blame is damaging and counterproductive. Moreover itaEU(tm)s often used by people who are afraid or threatened by something to raise themselves up by putting others down.
So yes blame (oops IaEU(tm)ll use the code word responsibility) is very good for making one person feel superior and another inferior.
Yes Hayzen, knowing thyself, and seeing oneaEU(tm)s problem is very beneficial. Many systems of psychotherapy are built upon those concepts. However addictions are very tricky things. Addicts are often aware of a problem long before anyone else. BUT knowing that one has a problem and is responsible for trying to correct it DOES NOT take away the compulsion. Addicts in treatment will swear up and down that they are willing themselves to stop using, but nether less succumb to the urges anyway. ThataEU(tm)s why so many addiction counselors burn out quickly, itaEU(tm)s maddening working with these people. So working with addiction is far more complicated that berating someone with aEUoeItaEU(tm)s your fault loser! Be a man, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps like me and stop! aEUoe
Your suggestion is more akin to someone coming up to a tech with a computer problem, and the tech takes a rock and starts beating on the computer. LifeaEU(tm)s more complicated than simple platitudes.
Culann there is a major difference between knowing you are addicted, and understanding why you became addicted. There is a reason people become addicted to booze, narcotics, sex, eating. It isn't because beer forced itself down the person's throat, it isn't because drugs forced themselves into a person's vein, and it isn't because food tastes too good.
Addictions do not reach out for people. People reach out for addictions, and there is a motive behind this behaviour.
Hayzen is right in one regard. Addictions usually are for some deeper reason. In my case, it was having a rather moderately unpleasant childhood that I was seeking to escape.
However, Hayzen, I also think that the point they are trying to make is that there are some activities that no one gets addicted to. I've never heard of, say, a sardine addict, or a solitaire addict. But we do hear of gambling and, well, online gaming.
Some activities lend themselves towards being more appealing to potential addicts than others. And for that matter, not all "addictive" activities appeal to the same people.
But again, you will be far harder-pressed to find an admitted solitaire addict than an admitted EQ addict.
Ok, I need a little clarification, from reading your posts I gathered that what you are saying, and (IaEU(tm)m not going over the whether EQ is addictive or not) this is that people choose to play the game obsessively to the detriment of their real lives and their health, and that all they had to do was will themselves in a Nietzche like exercise to stop (sometimes I get these weird RiefenstahlaEU(tm)s Triumph of the Will images when I read some of these posts). Correct?
Now what I hear you saying is that people choose to play EQ in the first place as a means to escape something, no?
Well I could see your point if we were talking about smack, or alcohol. I mean one pretty much knows what happens when you start imbibing those substances, one is definitely trying to forget, or get to a place of no pain with those items.
But I will assume, that one probably chose to play EQ, because they wanted to play a game. I donaEU(tm)t know, I could be wrong. I mean thereaEU(tm)s nothing on the box as to the game dynamics or time requirements that would lead a casual purchaser, or fledgling addict searching for a fix of choice to inform them of anything but it being a role-playing game.
When I bought the game I thought it was a graphically uglier version of BalduraEU(tm)s Gate, or Fallout that you played occasionally with friends (duhaEU|silly me).
Anywho, I see your point and if we were talking about the normal addictions, I might agree. However you can take two people with the exact same abusive backgrounds and one becomes a raging cokehead and the other a boring accountant. Why? Was it a combination of biological, and environmental factors that flipped a switch in one and not the other, or is it just as our friend Nietzche might say is that one is naturally superior to the other?
I guess what the gist of what IaEU(tm)m hearing you say is that before we go to Best Buy or BabbageaEU(tm)s to buy a game is that all of should get seven years or so of psycho analysis so that we are self-aware enough to realize whether we are searching for fun or an obsession.
Edited by: Culann the Ranger at: 10/22/02 5:24:04 pm
No, Culann that wasn't what I was saying at all, actually. You said that talking about "blame" or why a person is addicted wasn't important. I simply countered that by saying you can't fix a problem unless you understand why the problem is happening.
Morfedel,
I have heard of a person being addicted to solitaire. I've also heard of people being addicted to golf:
Quote: I have run several calls on golf courses and on each one, the patient has been in grave condition. I transported one guy at the 14th hole who was having a heart attack- his skin was all pale and sweaty, he had labored breathing, and his heart was beating so slowly that he had to be laid on the ground with his feet elevated to get adequate blood flow to his head.
He wanted to finish his game
The only reason we've been hearing about EQ Addiction is because it is sensationalist material that brings in ratings. Ratings bring in money. Money pays reporter's.
Edited by: Hayzen at: 10/22/02 5:34:01 pm
Oh, I've heard of golf addicts too - I'm suspecting my other brother is evolving into one - the jury is still out.
However: I am talking more about numbers. How many would claim an EQ addiction, versus Solitaire addiction? Generally, the higher the numbers, the more likely that is an activity that potential addicts find appealing.
You can be addicted to ANYTHING - some are just rarer than others.
Frankly, I suspect gambling and football could be considered far more addictive. I'm just pointing out that its all relative, and a matter of degree.
Well: I'm outta here. Its time to go pick up the wife and play with our puppies. I wonder how long before the darned things decide they are housebroken....
Hey Hay,
Little tired to carry this on for now, going to get a bite to eat, and do some reading.
Good discussion by the way..
Culann MacNessa Ranger of Surefall Glade
Guide, Hunter, Tracker Extrodinaire
"Stand Back! I'm going to summon my ranger pet Ninja Hamster "Fluffy the Mad"!
What I'm wearing at the moment
Hail and well met,
A link to this msg board was posted on our guilds web site, so I thought I would pop over and take a peek. After Reading this particular thread, I thought I would register and add a comment or 2. I shall attempt to stay within the confines of the subject " Blame and Responsibility".
It is my personal opinion that people handle situations, activities, habbits or what ever they are involved in to their best capability or lack there of. I feel it is rediculas to actualy finger point at a particular manufacturer of a specific product, Unless it is 100% obvious it was the products fault. The minute something bad happens, Someone somewhere is looking to hire a lawyer. Im not saying its a good thing or a bad thing becouse diferent problems merit diferent actions.
Look at Booze, Everyone knows booze will effect everyone diferently. then you have the narcotics, and other habbits as posted in previous posts. As to saying that EQ "Everquest" is addictive? Not sure i quit agree with that as here is my opinion as to why.
My current habbits.
1) Everquest 1 account, 5 carecters all lvl 45 +
2) Ultima Online 2 accounts, 14 carecters on 2 servers.
3) Dark Age Of camelot 1 account 8 carecters
4) Star Wars Online: Comming soon
I also enjoy
Riding bikes, camping, Hiking, fishing ( since i live 50 yards from a lake) and ceramics. and i enjoy Visiting Renasounce Festivals.
Yes i work full time. 40 - 56 hours a week.
you may think im addicted to online games. but i dont think so
I used to go bar hoping.
I would spend 280$ a week out of my weekly paycheck to go get drunk thursday, friday nights in the hopes of meeting the right person. LOL After going home from work 1 night 1 am i came across a perty young lady who ran off the road and found a tree. i went to help her and the smell of booze about knocked me out. So i switched to going to theaters and cyramics. that still cost me about $200 to $300 a month. then alas i found online games.
1 isp = 21$
1 extra phone line 18$
2 online games 22$
I only have 2 game accounts open at 1 given time. so i can switch in case of bordum. So I play online games as much as i do becouse it "Costs me less money than most other habbits"
Sure online games can become a problem with some people. but so can anyhting else. Example: lets ay all internet games and porn etc are banned period. what would these internet lovers do? Go to the bar, get drunk and go drunk driving? cruising their local avenues, get into trouble? Be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get blamed for somthing they did or did not do? who knows? If someone is having problems then his or her loved ones should act upon it. dont wait till its to late then say its "Manufacturer" fault ! thats just not right. should we add a label to the product with a warning? yes but only if it actualy life threatening. To me a uzi, ak47 is a bit more life threatening than a silly online game. just use some common sence.
If someone lets loose with a gun, who do we blame first? the manufacturer. any normal rationalizing person knows that guns were designed for 1 perpose. its how *WE* the common public use them that makes it right or wrong.
a few years ago a woman was awarded around 5 mil$ for spilling a cup of coffee on her lap and burned herself becouse it was hot. now that is just to silly.
How many of you coffee drinkers out here drink cold coffee? who got blamed? the fast food resturaunt did and they paid the money.
People should just use a little common sence before acting on a something. If someone has a problem help them address it, if possible.
Thank you and I apologise if I offended anyone, Just inteded to post my opinion.
thank you
TreeBeard
Ultima Online
Good post, Treebeard. Thanks for sharing.
Another moderator here, Dervish DuKot comes from Ultima Online. I remember when I started EQ that most of the people I met were from UO back then. Dervish was telling me how UO people loved it when other UO people would leave for EQ. They would hang out waiting until their houses decayed and then a bunch of people would all turn visible and make a run for the loot like tornadoes on a trailer park. Would have been fun to see.
Diggo
eMail - Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
Online Gamers Anonymous
Addicted to Everquest from July, 1999 to May, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Addiction has been studied by thousands of doctors, psychologists and others. And still to this day it is really not understood 100% why a person gets addicted to something psychologically.
But I pose this question to you saying that EQ is not addictive.
Do you think that EQ has a tendency to addict people moreso than other games?
Its the same thing that I could ask about gambling. Do you think that gambling has a tendency to be addictive?
I do not doubt that some have absolutely no addiction to EQ or any other game. But really if you think about tithese games are designed to be addictive. The old action leads to reward idea. And coupled with the multiplayer aspect of it makes it even moreso. Because not only do you have rewards from playing the game but you have rewards of fame, power, being the best or one of the best, leadership.... Thise are all rewards that one feels an enjoyment from.
Im not saying that Evequest is an inherently addictive product. But it has tendencies to be addictive, like gambling for example.
I take myself for an example, I played games all my life anything from the first Atari2600 to the latest PS2 and I tell you i like games, but never have I played a game like this one, never have I played a game that Im still playing 2 fricken years later. It was usually buy a game, play it for a mont or two untill boredom ensued and then buy another. So yes I do think that this game has addictive tendencies. Moreso than other games.
I'm not saying EQ is addictive - not like Drinking is addictive.
I'm saying EQ is addictive - in the same way gambling is addictive.
In the end, its the PERSON thats addicted; and yes, just like its not the gun-makers fault for the gun being used in a crime; just like a horse-track isnt responsible for someone spending their entire life savings; so is EQ, or any other game, not responsible for someone losing their life in it.
However: There is a reason why some activities, such as Gambling, Football, or EQ, is finding more addicts than, say, Solitaire. Something to them lend themselves to being more attractive to blossoming addicts - maybe its just that "They are more fun."
EQ isn't bad - its just more tempting than many other activities.
Point made, Eryl.
Please see the post below where I acknowledged what you just said.
pub136.ezboard.com/folgaf...=245.topic
Diggo
eMail - Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
Online Gamers Anonymous
Addicted to Everquest from July, 1999 to May, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
I saw it after I had posted this, otherwise I might not have added another one. Sorry to bust your chops on it again :P
Actually what I was saying was that people use blame as a means of building themselves up because of undesired insecurites or fear which the topic of excessive game play seems to have really set off. However youaEU(tm)re right, you canaEU(tm)t fix the problem unless you know whataEU(tm)s going on, and the fact that there is sites such as EQ Widows and OLGA, which itaEU(tm)s users and visitors document numerous instances of excessive game play to the point of detriment in regards to their real life and personal health speaks to the fact that something funkyaEU(tm)s going on. Those documented reports would seem to warrant some professional investigative studies. Just knowing what I know from personal experince playing the game, I would find playing it disasterous for people diagnosed with disorders such as schizophrenia, Aspergers, OCD, just to name a few. However that is just an opinion, just as your posts are contrary opinions. The use of self- reports by many folks on both sides of this issues is very poor evidence indeed.
Now dragging this thread back on topic, I say again, the use of blame or the code word aEUoeresponsibilityaEU by many of our posters is merely a nice club often used by people who are afraid or threatened by something to raise themselves up by putting others down.
The people I quoted below are typical of many of the detractors of this site of late. They are neither interested in any of the suffering of any person (save themselves) nor actually finding any answers to this relevant issue. What they are really interested in though is labeling people and setting themselves up as paragons of virtual and masters of their fate, he-manliness.
In my opinion (and once again itaEU(tm)s just an opinion), the ferocity of the bombastic displays, seem to be saying something that many of these folks are not aware of. Methinks thou doth protest too much.
Well, this thread is right down my alley, so here I go
Some people are more prone to addiction than others. I think we all agree with that.
A person who is prone to addiction can become addicted to almost anything.
Some activities are more attractive than others. I could become addicted to slamming my head in a car door. That would probably last until something more attractive comes along. I'd estimate that particular addiction would last about 4 seconds.
EQ is a very good game. Even people who are not prone to addicttion like to play it. A person who is prone to addiction gets a "dual benefit" from EQ. Not only is their addictive nature satisfied, but its a good gamethats fun to play.
Should we try to make everything as unpleasant as slamming your head in a car door just to limit the options of those who may become addicted? Do we demonize fun things because some people will abuse it? Or is it more productive and effective to explore the issues that contribute to a person's addictive tendencies?
Speaking from the perspective of a person with a long history of mental illness, treating symptoms is ineffective. Only by treating the real problem can real healing be accomplished.
Leucol,
The thing gamers seem to forget all of the while they play with the words of addiction or compulsion or obsession and how they are responsible for their actions is the fact that what they do DOES affect other people in their lives besides them!
Quote:Do we demonize fun things because some people will abuse it? Or is it more productive and effective to explore the issues that contribute to a person's addictive tendencies?Who is going to explore these tendencies? The gamer sure isn't because they are way to busy playing the game.
The family and friends are left choking on the dust, while the gamer runs around gaming morning, noon and night.
If the only person the gaming affected was the gamer him/herself, I would say find, let them play forever, but it doesn't.
The gamer's actions affect many different relationships with people around him/her. And you all never seem to address that.
Liz Woolley
I read what Leucol posted, and what Culann had posted, and I think that they are not really talking about the same issue. Their views are not inconsistent.
I think that the point that Culann was making back then was a good one -- there is a subset of "Eq addicts" (merely to use shorthand) who simply bought the game, started playing it, and got caught up in the compelling nature of the game. He said.
Now what I hear you saying is that people choose to play EQ in the first place as a means to escape something, no?
Well I could see your point if we were talking about smack, or alcohol. I mean one pretty much knows what happens when you start imbibing those substances, one is definitely trying to forget, or get to a place of no pain with those items.
But I will assume, that one probably chose to play EQ, because they wanted to play a game. I donaEU(tm)t know, I could be wrong. I mean thereaEU(tm)s nothing on the box as to the game dynamics or time requirements that would lead a casual purchaser, or fledgling addict searching for a fix of choice, to inform them of anything but it being a role-playing game.
When I bought the game I thought it was a graphically uglier version of BalduraEU(tm)s Gate, or Fallout that you played occasionally with friends (duhaEU|silly me).
He also said, sarcastically, that perhaps psychoanalysis should be a prerequisite to starting playing, so that one knows whether one is really looking for an escape, or just buying what they heard is a "good game."
Now I think that opponents of this idea that some compulsive gamers actually weren't pre-disposed to compulsive gaming before they bought the game call this "blaming the game." This brings about a lot of uproar and chest beating. I fall into the camp of saying (1) people are not automatons and definitely bear 'responsibility' for their actions and are not brainwashed by the game, yet (2) the compelling nature of the game absolutely creeps up on some people and previously well-adjusted people end up playing the game compulsively and/or excessively. I won't solve the chicken-egg problem, but I think that Culann's post said this better than I have been able to.
Leucol's post from yesterday is equally valid. The two are NOT inconsistent however. There is another sub-set of people, those pre-disposed to "addictions" for whom Everquest is especially attractive. Those addictive sorts SHOULD get at the root of their issues, and for them blaming the game is probably bad, especially when they've been addicted to 17 other things before that. Blaming the game blocks them from dealing with the "real" underlying issues.
For those of us with relatively libertarian leanings, no, we shouldn't 'dumb down' or advocate regulations on games just because some people will have problems with them.
I think that the population of excessive gamers is very diverse. I came to that conclusion all on my own
Art by Culurien GoldleafEscaped from the Skinner Box 20 October 2002
Quote:The thing gamers seem to forget all of the while they play with the words of addiction or compulsion or obsession and how they are responsible for their actions is the fact that what they do DOES affect other people in their lives besides them!
While some gamers, or other escapists, may indeed be oblivious to the impact of their actions, there is a good reason for that.
I have noticed that most people who post decrying the gaming addiction of a spouse are women. Granted, more men play video games than women. Lots more. However, it is a tried and true fact that women are, by and large, passive aggressive. I see it everywhere I go, every day of my life.
My mother doesn't like how my stepfather pokes fun at her from time to time, despite the fact that it is all in good fun and even she finds it humorous. She has never mentioned the issue to him, but broods and complains to me.
My manager HATES that the assistant manager sits on the side counter at the store. She complains and, to subvert this behavior, pasted a number of clipboards with store memos to the counter where he sits. When I approached the AM about this, laughing that he was still doing it, he said "Funny how she's never said anything to me."
My sister goes through bouts of SERIOUS depression, nearly suicidal, if her boyfriend withdraws for a time or forgets to call her. She has never told him of her feelings.
And, though I like to think I have it all figured out, I don't like when my husband ignores me for the internet. I have never broached the subject. I'd rather be peacefully "neglected" than angrily attended.
In every ladies' room in America, there are gripes about spouses or boyfriends. "He just doesn't get it." "He's so insensitive when he ignores me." "He doesn't understand my needs." He doesn't know them, honey. You've never told him. You're stuck in the mindreader phase, where he did everything right during the first few years. Those wear out in all but a small percentage of relationships. Time to learn how to have a long-term, give and take relationship. It's not easy, but we need to be honest with ourselves and our spouses.
I sincerely hope that those who have a serious problem with the gaming habits of a family member will find a way to actually talk about it with them. That is the ONLY way to discover if this is a gaming issue, a relationship issue, or a lifestyle issue - because it could be any number of things. Then, you can seek help. But brooding on a message board is no different from complaining in the restroom until you've raised the issue with your spouse. It's the first step. Don't omit it.
Lisa