Moved by Dervish, this is about lawsuits: Refined stance.

30 posts / 0 new
Last post
Squirrel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
TrollOLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 3:02pm
Moved by Dervish, this is about lawsuits: Refined stance.

Everquest addiction may well exist. I have a feeling 95% of those claiming do not have it. This is my opinion.

However, i did not venture to this board to express outrage over the fact that some people may play EQ or games like it too much.

I came here because of the highly publicized lawsuit. It reminds me, as someone brought up further down in posting, of the McDonald's nutritional content negligence suit. It is very similar. And, to be completely honest, i believe both of these individuals should be completely stripped of their right to bring forth civil suits (except in grave circumstances).

What they are doing is absolutely disgusting. They're simply grubbing for money over things that are ABSOLUTELY, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT THEIR FAULT. If you become fat from eating fast food, it IS your fault. McDonald's has been flagged unhealthy for YEARS. Just the same, if your child commits suicide (and just so happens to also have been an avid Everquest player), it IS your fault. Especially when you are AWARE of this child's mental and social problems.

I, as well as many people i know, have plans to break into the gaming industry in some way, shape, or form. Massively Multiplayer Gaming is well on its way to becoming the next revolution in entertainment. I won't watch it be destroyed by some irresponsible parents. It has too much potential.

This is just another example of what seems to be a popular view among modern parents; they work too much, do not pay enough attention to their children, allow the children to be raised by surrogate parenting via the television, computer, and even the refridgerator. And, yet, of course, they're the very first to blame these mediums for NOT providing adequate content for their children, when THEY are the ones supposed to be regulating what their children see and do in the FIRST PLACE.

Society will not babysit your child for you. If you try it, you may not like the results. Just the same, it IS your doing.

Edited by: Dervish DuKot of Tristan at: 10/18/02 6:51:30 pm

Morfedel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/16/2002 - 1:00pm
Re: Refined stance.

At the risk of sounding ignorant, what lawsuit?

Hayzen
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/17/2002 - 4:24pm
Re: Refined stance.

The woman's name is Elizabeth Wooley. She is the founder of the Online Gamer's Annoymous organization, and this message board. You have probably seen some of her posts here. She uses the handle "lizwool".

Morfedel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/16/2002 - 1:00pm
Re: ,

Squirrel... I'm not certain about any lawsuit, but otherwise that story sounds much like one of our members, or the founder or whatever, here. Her son killed himself playing Everquest.

Lawsuits... lawsuits have become abusive in some regards, certainly. For instance:

the people sueing tobacco companies for getting cancer, thats wrong. People sueing the tobacco companies for adding addictive elements, thats right.

People sueing mcdonalds for gaining weight? thats wrong. People sueing mcdonalds for telling vegetarians they were cooking their fries in vegetable oil, yet adding meat broth to it unknown to said veggies? thats right.

Without knowing all the details, I cant adequately comment on it. I imagine I could see it being abusive or not, depending on the pertinent details.

Squirrel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
TrollOLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 3:02pm
Hi, Liz.

You're way off base.

Morfedel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/16/2002 - 1:00pm
Re: Hi, Liz.

Squirrel:

Who, I am, or she is?

Squirrel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
TrollOLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 3:02pm
,

She is. You're just fine.

Morfedel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/16/2002 - 1:00pm
Re: ...

Oh yeah, you are right. This kind of talk really is going to get people to see that games aren't addictive.

"So, tell me, this woman says her son committed suicide because of EQ. What do you think?"

"lol she sucks IRL. Her son killed himself because he sucks at life and the internet. mmorpgs > your family."

Wow. Point made, methinks. But not the one you intended.

Erushan
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:02pm
A thought

Squirrel is completely correct.

It's not often I stand against this kind of thing, as an activist against addiction, but this kind of thing really upsets me on a fundamental level.

Mrs. Wooley's lawsuit against Verant is totally and unadulteratedly frivolous, unethical and wrong. I believe sincerely she is trying to make a quick buck.

People die because they lose inordinant amounts of money at card games. Should we then sue Bicycle because they created the cards? The answer is no - Thousands upon thousands enjoy harmless card games that enhance their lives and take away some of the boredom, replacing it with social interaction.

Verant is no different.

Thousands, at any one time, are playing EverQuest. They aren't being exposed to any dangerous influence, any more so than another enjoyable experience, like a card game. Instead, they find the experience so enjoyable, they are willing to invest time and money into the game, and to forge relationships inside. There are many cases of weddings that have been forged due to EverQuest. Surely, these people aren't suicidal because they play the game?

Instead, it is more logical to believe that Mrs. Wooley's son was socially inept and chronically seclusive. He was not a good judge of character, a skill that is usually learned at home, from parents or siblings. It is the parents' responsability to mould their children into functioning, productive members of society. However, I submit that Mrs. Wooley neglected this responsability.

Mrs. Wooley's son was scammed. He was so distraught over this, that he committed suicide. Now let's compare his, unfortunate decision with one we find in every day life.

A man loses his job. It is devastating. He doesn't kill himself. Why?

He doesn't kill himself because he has the social backing and the confidence, nay, gumption to continue. Mrs. Wooley's son was probably ill-cared for as a child, and lacked the social skills in order to make friends. Barring that, his emotional support base was to blame, for any combination of the following reasons: Family did not support him, few friends to support him.

Before a retort is made about the analogy about the man and his job - If he DOES kill himself, is the corporation that fired him criminally responsible for his death? Would his family win, if they sued them, or would they be thrown out of court and countersued for defamation of character and libel/slander?

Erushan
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:02pm
an afterthought

Oh, as an afterthought - I played EverQuest. Notice the past tense. I don't play anymore.

It wasn't addictive.

I didn't kill myself.

Drehan Starshynne
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:06pm
Re: A thought

Thank you for putting it into the words you chose my friend and i feel the same way and know that it is the turth.

Drehan Starshynne
51St lvl Druid
Blood of Honor

Gorukha
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:08pm
Actually

Actually the mother has a good case. MMORPGs are highly addictive, everyone knows it. It is the game makers fault for not marking the product as addictive.

Morfedel
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/16/2002 - 1:00pm
Re: Actually

Erushan: again, I do not know any details on this law suit. Today is the first day I've heard about it, so I cant comment on it.

Erushan
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:02pm
Still...

Now you know.

This forum and website were probably either proactive moves to prepare a popular relations war with the video game companies, or as a very smart idea from her lawyers, to increase her credibility in court.

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread got deleted. If it did, then we should all know that our discussion is so threatening to her plan for a quick buck, and national sorrow that she would go so far as to squelch our voice while adamantly preaching to others.

In short, deletion of this thread will give us added justification and credibility. It will lend each of our arguments a sense of martyrism.

Regardless - Her lawsuit is wrong. This website is misleading and inflammatory. I am deeply sorrowed by her loss, as I am for any mother who has lost her son to suicide. However, I do not condone the shifting of blame, especially from mother to an innocent. ESPECIALLY when she has money and national fame to gain.

Think twice. Think critically. It will help stop these kinds of lawsuits from ever popping up and gumming up the already-overworked and abused United States Justice System.

Gorukha
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:08pm
HA

You say that now, but if the opportunity arose you would be raping the justic system of the country you love in a split second. The woman lost her child because a company put out a totally moronic repetetive , highly addictive game in the market out there for kids to play. There's a reason subliminal messages in commercials have been made illegal. Games that are made solely to addict a person to play them 24/7 doing the exact same thing over and over with no real progression or responsibility to inform the publuic of the addictive nature of the product deserve to get pulled off the shelves.

Erushan
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:02pm
...

There's a flaw to your argument.

I'll simply use an analogy to prove you wrong.

A woman with severe diabetes decides to eat a bag of sugar. She dies. The company that produces the bag of sugar is not to blame.

If you are weak willed and prone to addiction, then most, more potent forms of recreation are not for you.

Diggo McDiggity
Diggo McDiggity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
GrandparentOLGA member
Joined: 07/04/2002 - 9:43am
Re: Still...

There is no lawsuit, for the 500th time. This point is mentioned in dozens of posts on this board. Writing a 1,000 word post on how stupid the lawsuit is, just serves to show everyone that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Take some time, read the board and/or contact us directly with any questions. We will be happy to address any discussions directly with you. And you just might be surprised at what you learn.

Diggo

eMail - Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
Online Gamers Anonymous
Addicted to Everquest from July, 1999 to May, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played

Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002

Gorukha
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/18/2002 - 7:08pm
Heh

Actually your analogy is inapropriate. Diabetics know what they shud eat. Game companies have a responsibility to mark their games addictive since it's a very destructive thing. There is a reason gambling is not allowed in many places in the United States. Why would you put a needle with heroine in front of an addict ? Kids by nature get addicted to things easily, companies HAVE TO take responsibility for their games destructive side effectc.

wickdwtrfals
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 02/26/2006 - 9:16pm
sueing mcds

if you had an autistic child who can not have any wheat or dairy in their diet b/c it harms them mentally (allergies) would you not take action against mcdonalds for lying on their website claiming those ingredients were not in their french fries????

lizwool
lizwool's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 19 hours ago
AdministratorBoard MemberGrandparentOLG-Anon memberWebmaster
Joined: 06/27/2002 - 1:13am
Re: sueing mcds

I am not sure what that statement has to do with anything?

Liz Woolley

HazyJay
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 02/21/2006 - 2:35am
Re: sueing mcds

I believe they are defending a lawsuit??? I guess they ddin't check out the age of the post.

InSomeNiak
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 01/27/2006 - 5:43am
Re: sueing mcds

Maybe wickdwtrfals is personally involved in such a situation and found this article through a websearch and replied? At first glance, i'd tend to agree. Yet, after a bit of analyzing, i'd first say that if I had a child with autism who's mental health could hinge on their diet, I believe I would cook them dinner rather than take them to McDonald's. And wheat and dairy could end up in fries so easily that we can't really expect McDonald's to have to take such responsibility. What if the employee made you a milkshake then grabbed some fries? Or touched a bun then grabbed some fries? (Not that I know all the details of the scenario, or case. Maybe the fries themselves contain wheat and/or dairy? This could change my opinion somewhat.) I mean, I hate corporate America as much as the next person that hates corporate America. But it's McDonald's... fast food... it's not a darn science lab.

Edit: Yeah, after a websearch I found this article: www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/d....fries.ap/ So apparently McDonald's claimed that their fries were safe to eat for those with dietary issues with dairy and wheat, yet admited recently that their cooking oil used to flavor their fries is derived from dairy and wheat products. I imagine that would be grounds to sue over. But I still maintain that anyone with these types of food allergies should not eat at fast food places, as wheat or dairy substances could easily, accidently, get into other foods.

Edited by: InSomeNiak at: 2/27/06 16:15

anonymous (not verified)
Re: sueing mcds

Quote:But I still maintain that anyone with these types of food allergies should not eat at fast food places, as wheat or dairy substances could easily, accidently, get into other foods.

They should especially not eat at fast food places as all the additives tend to give you more allergies... so I would only do this, if I had some sort of fetish, collecting them.

"I am great ... this year I am already allergic to 80 ingredients, now you can really have fun cooking me dinner"

Allergies can be treated. Conventionally, or even better by energy medicine, like accupuncture. Hypnosis also works great, though for me a combination of the two did it.

They still occassionally come back, especially under stress or other illness and I have to accupressure them into submission , but itA's a matter of minutes

------------------
What you think, you create. What you say, you produce. What you do, you call forth more of.

InSomeNiak
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 01/27/2006 - 5:43am
Re: sueing mcds

Yeah, I read something about you using accupressure or such to (temporarily?) cure some allergies you had. Luckily i'm blessed with not a single known allergy. Poison oak and ivy, cats and dogs, various medicines, and not even pollen affect me allergy-wise. Though i've known many people who suffer from lots of allergies and it appears to be a horrible thing to have to deal with.

lizwool
lizwool's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 19 hours ago
AdministratorBoard MemberGrandparentOLG-Anon memberWebmaster
Joined: 06/27/2002 - 1:13am
Re: sueing mcds

I knew this person - for real.

He had all of these allergies. He had to have the entire house filtered, because of them. He could hardly go outside.

He got divorced, started going with this chick 20 years his junior. He moved out of that house, started smoking, never saw an air purifier again, and he is still alive.

How can that happen?

Liz

Liz Woolley

anonymous (not verified)
Re: sueing mcds

Before the advent of cars, massive use of pesticides, GM-food etc... allergies were 90-100% psychosomatic (there are some known physical issues like too clean a flat in childhood so that the immune system is oversensitive due to lack of exposure).

At the moment I am not so sure, as some are definitely caused / worsened by bad food and environment, but I do not know to which ratio.

Still, mostly it is suppressed feelings/emotions, that find another outlet. For example me having a cat allergy is a pretty sure-fire thing that I had issues with love (cuddly furry lovable beings against which I had that allergy). Pollen the same thing (reproductive parts of plants).

The first time that a friend of mine suggested that my pollen allergy could have to do with love and sexual life, I could not understand, but we were on a seminar, standing in a kitchen with psychologists and healers, and they all laughed and winked at me. Later I got the joke that pollen is the reproductive mechanism of plants, even later I understood that it was a joke with the truth in it.

So what you describe Liz, could have several reasons.

The house he lived in could have been unclean/moldy (to which most peoples immune systems are not adapted anymore). Or what I think is that he was somehow unhappy with his previous way of life, but could not allow himself to express it. So allergies were his outlet.

I had for example a cigarette allergy, which I conjured up myself. Im my college, it was allowed to smoke and people did it everywhere and all the time. And when I started to do Yoga, it cleans the airways so for me it was breathing hell. And as people did not care for me saying that I did not like the smoke, I started saying that I had an allergy for it. And pretty soon I had one. Complete with sweat, running nose, sneezing etc. So people had "more respect" ... what a stupid world. Anyway, later I had real trouble getting rid of it.

What I would call my cigarette allergy would be passive agression. I was not in the position to be ouvertly aggressive, so I had to find a way to be so covertly.

------------------
What you think, you create. What you say, you produce. What you do, you call forth more of.

Xandtar
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 3 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 04/09/2003 - 7:42am
Re: sueing mcds

Some threads get so old and moldy that they are better deleted, lest they cause confusion....

but far be it for me to do so!

Leveling in Real Life

lizwool
lizwool's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 19 hours ago
AdministratorBoard MemberGrandparentOLG-Anon memberWebmaster
Joined: 06/27/2002 - 1:13am
Re: sueing mcds

You can delete this one, if you want.

Liz

Liz Woolley

InSomeNiak
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 6 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 01/27/2006 - 5:43am
Re: sueing mcds

Or the threads can turn into a totally different conversation.
Quote:"(there are some known physical issues like too clean a flat in childhood so that the immune system is oversensitive due to lack of exposure)."

I tend to believe in this somewhat also. Like George Carlin's skit about germs and swimming in the East River. About how people can be less susceptable to germs if their body has been conditioned to create a defense mechanism. If you've had less contact with germs - i'd imagine that you would not have as much defense against them. I remember seeing a study done on this subject as well - about our increased constant use of anti-bacterial soaps. That bacteria are becoming more immune to the soaps, and what kind of predicament that might be for us in the future. (Funny, this goes both ways. In this scenario the bacteria are building a stronger defense mechanism towards our synthetic method of defense against them.) Though I still refuse to use anything but anti-bacterial soaps for hands, bath, and dishes.

Apparently I have a strong immune system myself. Just the other day a thread came up elsewhere about having a flu shot. I mentioned that I have never had a flu shot, or had the flu, 31 years straight.

Never thought/heard of allergies as being psychosomatic though. Interesting theory.

Edited by: InSomeNiak at: 3/8/06 17:49

Diggo McDiggity
Diggo McDiggity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
GrandparentOLGA member
Joined: 07/04/2002 - 9:43am
Re: sueing mcds

This has historical proof.
Many indigenous peoples have been wiped out when people from 'civilized' lands brought over their diseases and illnesses. Those cultures which had never experienced these diseases suffered terrible losses as a result.

As for antibacterial products, I have grown skeptical of any consumer related product making its way onto the scene that uses fear and intimidation to sell its product.

With antibacterial soap, it's not so much the soap that provides the benefit as it is the hot water which is required to work. And you should be rinsing at least 20 seconds in hot water.

By the time you've reached adulthood, your body, if it is healthy from a good diet, lots of regular exercise and occasional sedentary activity like sitting at a keyboard , is extremely proficient at fighting disease.

If you think about it, the occasional washing with antibacterial soap does little considering the amount of dirty things we touch each day which are covered with microscoping fecal matter germs and/or worse...

- Money, one of the dirtiest things we can touch
- Door knobs/handles - especially in public restrooms
- Telephones and keyboards
- Handheld shopping baskets at stores - think about it, those things are never washed.

Etc.

Not to gross you out, but practice good hygiene, keep the body healthy with a good diet and regular exercise and you should have nothing to worry about. Antibacterial soaps and such just give peace of mind more than any particular benefit.

Ron

"Get a Life!"
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
OLGA Admin and Member since 2001
eMail: ronjaffe@cfl.rr.com

Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002

Topic locked