From a professional stand point.....

25 posts / 0 new
Last post
Valorin Diamante
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
Outreach
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 12:16pm
From a professional stand point.....

Well I am going to do this from a professional stand point, and not from and EQ player, because that is what I am, and not afraid to admit it.

First off, I am a mental health professional who works with kids ranging from 1 to 18. I have a wonderful family with 2 kids and very active with my family, on the computer and other recreational activities. What I mean by that is surfing, flag football, scuba diving etc........

I have a masters in mental health and have worked in the field for many years. I live a verey healthy and fun life and enjoy Everquest. Again this is coming from a mental health professional who enjoys EQ.

I have read many of the threads and yes feel bad for the families through the testimonials they have posted. What I am here to discuss is the responsibility of parents and the person.

I have played EQ for about 3 years, maybe a bit shorter. I have met many friends on game and have become close with a few. When I first started the game, I did not think I would be interested at all. I played many hours and although the hours are not as long, I still play. Few of those friends I have met on line are still playing, not playing as much and or are leaving the game.

I tried DAoC but found the game boring and to easy and took 3 months off of EQ. I returned becasue a close friend asked me to come back and so I did. I am a guild leader in the game and have earned respect and give respect to many of the people I have encountered. NOW.......

As I read, as a PROFESSIONAL, ic how most people blame an object for the obession. Is the game an addiction...yes it is an addiction, but the game is not causing the addiction. As I work in the field I do, I see parents blame kids for the bad choices they make. Parents are the vital point in the child's upbringing. Not saying that people here are bad parents and the upbringing is wrong, but parents who don't take the responsibility of monitoring children from what they encounter in life both on the internet and off, can not and don't have the right to blame objects.

Neither do adults who are so called addicted to on-line gaming. A person has the mind to make choices whether right or wrong. If they have the inability to make those decisions, then they have the inability to blame the GAME....

If a person takes the life of him/herself because of a game, then friends and family have to look at the underlying issues and see what else in life was causing the situation. Everyone DOES know the difference between reality and fictional, unless they are so mentally instable with delusions and false ideations.

Now I know many take the game serious, but that is because they want to succeed in what they are doing. A goal mind you is set in this game and that goal is something that wants to be accomplished. Sure argue the fact the drugs and alcohol is an addiciton. It is something entering your body that changes the way you act and react. EQ and any other online game is not. I will argue this to the day I die, because a person can not be stimulated by something not entering their body. A person can ENJOY or get UPSET at a game. It is all in the way you deal with it.

I have seen many people get upset start cursing say they are leaving, get others in the game....can you say poor anger control?

I have seen others on for hours straight trying to accomplish a goal...Is this wrong?...No, it is all in the way a person can handles themselves.

Stating that this is something that needs to be controlled, sure by the person and the parents. Blaming Sony for deverloping a game that Causes suicide? Depression?...hardly not. A person makes the decision on what they want in life. A game does not make that decision because it is not a mind altering objetc, and to say it is, is called lack of education, self control and parenting.

A PERSON MAKES THE DECISION, NOT THE GAME. I stress that, becasue couples need to sit down and draw lines. Parents need to stress that to draw the lines...and the person needs to sit down and draw the lines...

Sad that many people have lost relationships, family members, jobs and money? YES.....

But what is even sadder is that people have to say that EQ caused the life of my son...my relationship and financial hardships...

Look deep into the person playing the game before judging the game. Many good people play the game and have healthy lives. Many don't, but the question i pose is this because of on-line gaming and not the person themselves.

Myself played Dungeons and Dragons, monitored by my parents, played videogames, monitored by my parents....EQ monitored by me....My wife does she play? No, but understands it is something I enjoy and we have sat many nights discussing if EQ takes over parenting and husband responsibilities then there will be a problem. But WE discussed that, and did not say..."The game is addicting and owns my life..I must play..I must run my guild"

So take this post as you may, flame me or not...I know it will get disected but many non on-line gammers who like to blame others and their perspective on things, and refuse to take the responsibility and say it was our fault as a couple or it was our fault as a parent, for not DRAWING the lines or strictly monitoring what was being played....

An EQ player who tries to make healthy decisions and not blame others for the decisions I make for myself....

Edited by: Valorin Diamante at: 12/12/02 12:35:03 pm

Lelgolas Elfinator
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
TrollOLGA member
Joined: 12/09/2002 - 4:59pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

I will do nothing more than applaud this post. Finally, a doctor even, who validates what I have been saying. Sure he isnt emotional like I am, but thats because he has the actual book credentials, as I just have what I have been taught in life. Wonderful.

Devia Devious
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
Outreach
Joined: 12/09/2002 - 5:42pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

Valorin, I ask that you take a look at the post I made entitled The Challenge. The link is below so you do not have to go looking for it:

pub136.ezboard.com/folgaf...=338.topic

Was wondering if you might be able to spare some time and put into effect some of the ideas suggested. I know you are very busy, but if you might be able to contact one of the moderators of this board...maybe you could schedule some time to lend a hand?

D

Seer Family
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
TrollOLGA member
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 1:42pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

/applaud

Thank you.

If you want this message board to actually effect peoples lives and be targeted at the problem then change the title.

The problem is not an addiction to the game.

The problem is :

anger managment
borderline personality issues
suicide
depression
and many others real life issues.

A 12 step program to get people to stop playing video games is not the anser.
And contrary to the misinformation disseminated by this board and other means, not everyone playing the game on a regular basis is an "addict".

The focus on that point is damaging to a good game, a moderately good company (Sony has their own share of problems), and creates a really bad sterotype that is simply incorrect.

Caitsith 53 Mage
Toric 44 Paladin
Shariona 45 Cleric
Aideen 21 Druid
Cybil 21 Mage
Roselyn 11 Enchanter

Multiple Personality..it's not a disorder...its a gaming skill.

Valorin Diamante
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
Outreach
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 12:16pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

Dev.,

I have read the challenge, it is a very good post. You point out that breaking the games could only lead to another. This is true.

I want to stress that it was a very good thread, and whats get me is the blame of the game. People need to understand that life is chosen by each and every person. Not decide by objects...A person can stop smoking if willing, a person can stop drinking.....but it takes a strong DECISION to do these things and not to Blame others or the object.....

AA

1) I am an alcoholic.....This is the first thing they must recognize....Not I am an alcoholic because alcohol makes me drink....

Everquest, Anarchy on line, DaoC and soon to be SWG...Decisions will continue to be made by HUMAN beings....Not the game....

So blaming the game for poor decsions should not be the cause or the mission....

Making people understand that the mission is to MAKE the right decsions and if this is causing turmoil in life with family or your spouse, then DRAW limits.....

Eg...of Blame...

1) EQ.....commited suicides, failed marriages......
2) Dungeons and Dragons.....commited suicides, failed marriages
3) Gambling same
4) alcohol and drugs same

I pose this question....When SWG the new Star Wars on line games out.....Someone commits suicide or destroies a famiy..Shall the same who blame on line gaming blame George Lucas for creating the world of Star Wars?

Blame is nothing successful but refusal.....to take responsibility of their own decisions...

Those that have posted that they made the decision to quit becasue........Have done the right thing....Those that have not and UNFORTUNETLY hurt themselves and family.....then they did not make the necessary CHOICES to determine reality from fiction.....

Ishtarrak
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 2:21pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

Quote: A 12 step program to get people to stop playing video games is not the anser.

Actually a true 12 step program offers the answer you seem to suggest. Ask AA, Alanon, Gambler's Anonymous or any other long standing 12 step based program -- the focus is on personal responsibility. That also tends to be the struggling individual's greatest issue.

Even if individuals don't necessarily follow the steps and blame the game instead, I have to applaud the professed goal of OLGA through the use of the 12 step method.

Valorin Diamante
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
Outreach
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 12:16pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

There is my troll buddy....Yes he is a friend I met on line and yes we had our times of trials and tribulations, but reality came to mind knowing EQ was only a game....

BTW..Missed you in the game latley ye old Gnarly Troll....

Val

Murtaag Swampwolf
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 3:33pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

I quit bro. Yea yea, I am sure the prechers here will spout their drivel about how I saved my soul before god and how I should smash up my cd's and email them to some spazoid who thinks EQ is the spawn of the Devil.

Whatever. For all who really care I am quiting to go to the second spawn of the Devil. Either SW:G or E&B.

BTW - I am happily married, preparing to start a family of 3 or 4 and have an excellent job. All while I was playing EQ. What a frickin' concept huh. But that doesn't make for good ratings.

Edited by: Murtaag Swampwolf at: 12/12/02 2:35:31 pm

lizwool
lizwool's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 39 min ago
AdministratorBoard MemberGrandparentOLG-Anon memberWebmaster
Joined: 06/27/2002 - 1:13am
Re: Murtaag

I heard EQ was one of the best birth control methods ever!

Good luck on raising your family.

I hope you will mentally and physically be with them, anytime you can, because they are only small a little while!

Liz

Liz Woolley

lizwool
lizwool's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 39 min ago
AdministratorBoard MemberGrandparentOLG-Anon memberWebmaster
Joined: 06/27/2002 - 1:13am
Re: Murtaag

We are here for gamers who HAVE had a problem with the games.

I apologize, that I cannot be here for everyone! I am sorry.

If you want to play the games, go and do it.

I never said you shouldn't.

Liz Woolley

Murtaag Swampwolf
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 3:33pm
Re: Murtaag

You may have never said it, but you sure as hell imply it everytime you open your mouth.

Have a nice life.

Soprena
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/29/2002 - 10:12pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

Valorin, how would you as a professional counsel someone who plays Everquest excessively and compulsively?

I'm asking for general themes here, and do not want you put you in the uncomfortable position of giving advice online. I am interested in your suggested approach. If it works better, try this: As both a knowledgeable player and professional, how would you counsel other professionals to counsel such a client?

Valorin Diamante
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
Outreach
Joined: 12/12/2002 - 12:16pm
Re: How to help?

Haven't stopped by this board for a long time and saw the post on how to help someone with this issue.

OMG very good question and very tough being a gammer. The best way is for the parents if they are under the age of 18 you as the parent need to take responsibility to make limits on playing the game if you as a parent think it is addicting. Poor grade performance due to being on line all the time, not developing a social life, being hidden in the room at all times of the day. Then you have to look and see if this is something you don't mind because you would rather have your child where you can watch them and not exposed to other negative aspects in life.

The problem of seclusion is the lack of identity and developing social skills, so it really comes down to the parents and how they feel they need to govern rules. Time limits, internet access and so on.

As for an adult, if THEY feel this is an addiction to them and need to seek help, it starts out like anything else. Admit it and find other things to do. Make limits on yourself on how much you are gonna play, when you are gonna play and if this something that you feel is not a healthy life style.

Like me, it is not a an issue, because I find other things to do. Scuba Diving, surfing, golfing and family time. I do spen lots of time on line and have many RL friends I have met through the game. I find time to spend with my family, work and other recreational activities. The time I neglect these things is the time I think it will be an issue.

So trying to help someone is not trying to convince them that On line games is an issue. First off, that person needs to say that this is runing my RL social and family aspects of life. If it is not, then they are fine.

I have many guild members in my guild that are married couples that are single, married w/and w/out kids. Some we have are still in high school. I see over guild chat, need to go I have homework, or need to go study for finals or need to go bnecause I need to take my child to brownies or band or football practice. They all lead healthy lives and no when to say it tis time to log.

Then there are other times when those same are on till 4m...me on vacation...lol....

I think making the game or any other game as being the main exucuse for anything is not the right text. These are just catalyst to other issues that may be happening in the home.

Like drugs, alcohol, gambling and even on-line games, the person needs to take the responsibility of accepting that they are making decisions and they need to take the necessary steps into making their life on the track that THEY want, and not others.

Val

Soprena
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/29/2002 - 10:12pm
From the Professional Standpoint

Thanks for coming back! You said,
Quote:As for an adult, if THEY feel this is an addiction to them and need to seek help, it starts out like anything else. Admit it and find other things to do. Make limits on yourself on how much you are gonna play, when you are gonna play and if this something that you feel is not a healthy life style.
This is pretty much what most of us say here, as well. That's why we post lists of alternatives, and our posts to newcomers often ask what hobbies they have or had before gaming took over.

A lot of people don't make it all of the way from admit it, to find other things to do, to actually reducing their online time. I think many get 'hung up' between admitting it (many KNOW in their hearts that they have a problem with excessive play time) and changing their conduct. At least for me that was the case, as when I finally quit I never looked back (that is, no longings to play again).

It's that split second where someone says to themselves, (1) "I want to sit down and play," then (2) "I shouldn't." For me, after the "I shouldn't," a very odd feeling came over me and I did anyway. That moment is THE moment. This applies to a lot more than gaming. That is THE moment where self-control HAS to take over, and for the "addict," it doesn't. I suspect that people trying to quit drinking, or smoking, or whatever, struggle at the same split second.

I hope that you come back more often to contribute. We could really use a "professional" to contribute, and someone who is also a "gamer" would have certain advantages. If you are interested in contributing in even a small way, please email me at soprena001@hotmail.com . This site is NOT going to have a professional to give advice to wayward gamers, and I'm sure you'd agree that that would be ill-advised professionally, ethically etc.

Art by Culurien GoldleafEscaped from the Skinner Box 20 October 2002

Edited by: Soprena at: 1/7/03 2:42:14 pm

Aphrodeia
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 12/17/2002 - 1:02pm
Re: Murtaag

I think this excellent post needs a bump. It's the only one I've seen from someone asserting to be a professional.

*bump!*

Lisa

Morfedel
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/16/2002 - 1:00pm
Re: From a professional stand point.....

I need to reply to this.

There ARE a few people here who blame the game, but I believe most of us (most certainly myself) blame ourselves, for our weaknesses in resisting the game.

But one must pose this question: why is it some activities are so prone to people becoming addicted, and some are not?

For example: you will be hard pressed to find people who are obsessed with, say, going to the circus. But, finding people who are obsessed with Everquest, or gambling, is far, far easier.

Something about the activity lends itself to those who are vulnerable to developing obsessions that other activities do not. While the person who is obsessed is partially to blame (along with whatever painful history of their childhood, or whatever), and while the person most definitely should take their lives back in their own hands, as they can make their own decisions, or at least look for help, there is a reason, whatever it is, why some activities are so much more attractive to the obsessive types than others.

Diggo McDiggity
Diggo McDiggity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 months 3 days ago
GrandparentOLGA member
Joined: 07/04/2002 - 9:43am
Re: How to help?

Good question, Morf...
One of the things I'm trying to challenge people here to do though, is to try and stop thinking about it in terms of 'blaming' something for one's addiction, whether it is himself or something else.

Whenever we focus on 'blame' we associate shame, bad feelings, perhaps sadness and other negative emotions. When we blame ourselves, we dump all the negativity above onto ourselves when we really don't need any more negativity. No one beats himself up more than the individual himself with this problem. We see ourselves as weak, pathetic, out of control, and that just makes us worse. We know that we are the one who got us into this mess and we are the ones who have to get us out. While we may temporarily try and blame others, ultimately inside, we know where the responsibility lies.

That being said, when you begin to understand what motivates us psychologically, you will begin to see how the elements of EQ, for example, become so attractive. While other games utilize some or all of these elements in different ways, it just seems that Verant (originally) got the combination just right with EQ.

However, the recipe has been reworked over and over again over the past 4 years and many of EQs most L337 HaX0rZ are starting to unload their accounts in preparation for the next generation of MMORPGs, saying that EQ has run its course and its best days are behind them.

I still anticipate that Sims Online will spawn even more hardcore obsessive/compulsive players than EQ once Maxis has improved the "3D Chatroom" stigma that current players in Sims Online are complaining about.

It's not difficult to understand, because with Sims Online you can replace just about every aspect of your real life. When I first saw that addon that lets you attach a scanned image of your face to your character, that was getting a bit too bizarre. I can only imagine how many Ron Jeremy's and Traci Lords there are running around in Simsville.

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played

Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002

lizwool
lizwool's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 39 min ago
AdministratorBoard MemberGrandparentOLG-Anon memberWebmaster
Joined: 06/27/2002 - 1:13am
Re: Morfadel

And I have a similiar question - my son has been playing strictly computer games, since about 1993. Why was it that EQ was the only that he became obsessed with?

Liz Woolley

Aphrodeia
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 12/17/2002 - 1:02pm
Re: Murtaag

Liz,

As far as I know, there are very few games out there which combine interactivity with other people, a dynamic world, and a nearly infinite scope of goals. There are several thousand quests, many thousand monsters, and hundreds of thousands of players out there. After having played for two years, I've met a mere sliver of these people and have done barely a handful of quests. I haven't even been to all the zones in the world yet. There is just so much to DO, and for those who thrive on goalsetting, it's endless.

EQ has a lot to offer, and until recently, it's been the only viable MMORPG on the market. For those who started with EQ in the MMORPG realm, there was probably no reason to try others, thus it was the last game he really got into. He probably stopped looking.

Yanno how your keys are always in the last place you look? That's why

Lisa

Nova8404
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 3 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 07/15/2011 - 12:52pm
I have to agree that the

I have to agree that the addiction/obsession is within the person, not necessarily within the object used to satisfy the addiction. That said, I do believe some substances and/or products are deliberately developed to increase the likelihood of addiction in the majority of its users. Granted it will not "hook" everyone, but there certainly are enough disgruntled, addictive type of people around to pretty much guarantee these creators/developers a very healthy income. Smile.

Any game creator who gains profits/income from the use of the game is going to be delighted with anyone who finds it difficult not to play the game whether the source of the problem is within the player or the creator of the game, or both. Therefore I honstly don't think it's far fetched to comprehend that game creators could come up with a plan devised to keep people playing the game and therefore keep the money rolling in.

The bottom line is this - we as adults are responsible for the choices we make and allow our children to make. We, as adults hopefully know how to cope with the discomfort of not satiating every desire and keeping our lives in balance - be it with online activities or otherwise. And if we, as adults, find ourselves involved in any activity that affects other aspects of our life or health in a negative way, then we need to look deeply at the underlying causes of this behavior in ourself, not in the products we use. To blame product creators for the choices we make is not only ineffective, it assumes we are not free to decide for ourselves what we will and won't spend our time, energy and money on.

This said, I allowed myself to fall into addiction with a game. I am now refusing to continue playing that game until and if I find I am willing and able to keep involvement with it in balance with other important relationships and activities in my offline world.

Andrew_Doan
Andrew_Doan's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 weeks ago
OLG-Anon memberOLGA memberOutreach
Joined: 06/13/2011 - 9:37am
I am a professional too. I

I am a professional too. I have a PhD in Neuroscience and a medical degree. Scientific research is supporting that video games can be addicting. I do not blame the video game, but video games still have the potential to be "addicting". Like alcohol, I drink, but do not abuse alcohol because it makes me feel bad and feel sick.

Video games, however, are designed to make us feel good and "get us hooked". If you can play EQ, video games, and MMORPGs without being addicted, then awesome for you. But for 8% of children 8-18, this is not the case. We now have 4 generations of video gamers so the number of addicted children and adults likely exceeds 15 million, which is on par with 17 million Americans who abuse alcohol.

Do game designers make the games addictive, absolutely:

http://news.ncsu.edu/releases/wmsrobertspredict/

Is there a problem with video game addiction, absolutely:

http://www.olganon.org/?q=blog/12952&page=1

Is there scientific evidence for video game addiction, absolutely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18721098

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21494046

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21142990

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695685

http://www.drdouglas.org/drdpdfs/Gentile_Pathological_VG_Use_2009.pdf

I completely agree that adults and parents need to exercise responsibility. But few parents and adults, unfortunately, do not understand the dangers of video games. As an adult, if you know that video games can be as addicting and destructive as alcohol or gambling, would you be buying your children video games? Similar to how parents don't give alcohol to their kids or take their kids to the casino, parents would unlikely buy video games for their children if they were more educated about the dangers of video game addiction.

Andrew Doan MD PhD

My Videos: Internet gaming disorder is real & my story 

*The views expressed are of the author's and do not necessarily reflect the official policy of the U.S. Navy or Department of Defense.

Patria
Patria's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 06/02/2011 - 1:55am
I agree with Mudphud. 

I agree with Mudphud. There is enough scientific evidence. Read also:

http://www.amazon.com/Addictive-Personality-Understanding-Compulsive-Behavior/dp/1568381298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310759441&sr=8-1 and

http://www.amazon.com/Craving-Ecstasy-Natural-Highs-ebook/dp/B004D9EXLQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1310759487&sr=1-1

Although I am also alcoholic I do not blame the alcohol. But, the capacity to BE an alcoholic in my family was rather high. My dad, grandfather on both sides, assorted great grandparents, great uncles, assorted cousins, aunt, mother (drugs), sister (drugs), the list goes on. The chances of me being an alcoholic were quite high. If I had known this before I drank the first time, I might have not had that drink (some friends of mine have chosen not to drink because of their parents had a problem), but then again, I, personally will try anything "this won't happen to me."

As for gaming, I definitely did not know this could also be an addiction. If I had known would I try it? probably not, I had already been sober in AA for about 17 years at the time of my first game. I did not want or need another addiction. When being sober, I was moderate with eating, coffee (caffeine), over the counter drugs, etc., because I did not want to get addicted to anything more.

But, I got caught.

Does one blame the game for the addiction? yes and no. Some games, like Mudphud mentions are DESIGNED to keep the player playing. My ex-game WANTS people to play a lot. Oh yes, they have warnings on their log in screens about moderation in all things, but then again it took me 10 min. to fly from one continent to another, 3 hours to herb everything i needed for the potions we needed to raid dungeons.

Games vs. personal choice...is this just another chicken and egg debate? (dont mean us here in OLGA). The problem is, some games are highly addictive in themselves to certain individuals. Those individuals, like me, should never have picked up a game to begin with. But if those games are designed to keep people playing, then personal choice cannot be the entire answer.

Don't forget, games are designed to make money; and if nothing else in this culture speaks louder than health, families, love and well-being, it's MONEY. Money talks. If people didn't get addicted to these games and play for hours and hours, then game companies would go out of business, and would become nothing more than dusty boxes on Walmart shelves.

I think the discussion about game vs. personal choice, is another rationalization for intelligent people who don't like to admit they may have a problem.

People who do not have problems with alcohol EVER go into AA meetings and discuss whether the alcohol or the person has the problem. If someone does do this, we welcome them with open arms.

Serena
Serena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 8 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 03/06/2010 - 2:40am
This little thread that was

This little thread that was bumped to the top of Recent Posts

was started in 2002... yes, we know more now, don't we!

Serena

"A person starts to live when he can live outside himself." Albert Einstein

"You don't get to choose how you are going to die. Or when.
You can only decide how you are going to live. Now." Joan Baez

Patria
Patria's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 06/02/2011 - 1:55am
I just noticed the date!

I just noticed the date! well it was good for me to write my post. Helped me with a lot of issues I still have. :)

chopsticks
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
OLGA member
Joined: 10/06/2010 - 2:49am
i think this thread is

i think this thread is great. It shows how far things have come in research... and it is good to have a place where we can easily go for professional opinion.

Log in or register to post comments